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Apie privalomąjį sveikatos (ne)draudimą Lietuvoje (ir Barako Obamos sveikatos programą)

Šiandien apie privalomojo sveikatos draudimo įmokas diskutuojama itin karštai. Viešumoje koneveikiama daugybė situacijų, detalių ir aspektų, kurie gadina žmonėms gyvenimą. Nenoriu leistis į šias detales, tačiau išsakysiu keletą pastebėjimų apie reikalo esmę.

Visų pirma, privalomasis sveikatos draudimas su draudimu siejasi iš esmės tik pavadinimu. Jei tai būtų tikras draudimas, jo įmokos būtų susietos su draudimo įvykių rizika. Būtų aišku, ką tiksliai gauname už šias įmokas, o negavę galėtume eiti į teismą ir prisiteisti. Nieko tokio šiandien iš esmės nėra. Privalomasis sveikatos draudimas nėra tikras draudimas. Tai tiesiog sveikatos mokestis, turintis draudimo įmokos elementų ir administraciškai teikiamos sveikatinimo paslaugos, turinčios draudimo sistemos elementų. Tad ir kalbėti apie jį draudimo terminais galime tik labai sąlygiškai.

Antra, tiesa ta, kad visada yra dalis visuomenės, kuri neturi pajamų, nuo kurių mokėtų mokesčius ir nėra užsiregistravusi darbo biržoje dėl kuo įvairiausių priežasčių. Sveikatos mokesčio (arba privalomojo draudimo įmokų) rinkimas iš tokių žmonių remiasi prielaida, kad visi žmonės turi turėti teisę į sveikatos paslaugas.

Jei pritariame šiai prielaidai, tuomet logiška reikalauti ir kad visi mokėtų įmokas. Suprask, jei neturi darbo ir jo neieškai - tai tau jo ir nereikia, bet kadangi vis tiek turi „teisę” į sveikatinimo paslaugas, tai susimokėk bent kažkiek už šią teisę…

Tačiau jei nepritariame prielaidai, kad visi turi vienodą teisę į valdiškas sveikatinimo paslaugas (o bent jau aš ir nemanau, kad yra pagrindo tam pritarti), tai ir požiūris į sveikatos mokestį (privalomojo draudimo įmokas) turi būti visai kitoks. Tiesiog jei žmogus nemano, kad jam reikia draudimo paslaugų, tai jis ir nesidraudžia. Kai suserga, jam tektų priminti, kad niekas kitas čia nekaltas.

Vertėtų pastebėti, kad jei žmogus realiai neturi pinigų, o jam reikia susimokėti 72 litus už sveikatinimo paslaugas, tai gali būti ir taip, kad jis tuos 72 litus savo šeimos biudžete turės nubraukti nuo kitų išlaidų. Gali būti, kad tai bus kokybiškesnis maistas, šildymas ar kitos sanitarinės sąlygos. Tokiu atveju labai abejočiau, kad privalomas sveikatos draudimas pridėtų sveikatos.

Suprantu, kad tai yra ir ideologinė diskusija. Ar valdžia a priori laiko žmones avinais, kurie nesupranta kokia rizika, susijusi su sveikata, jiems gresia gyvenime, kokie turi būti jo išlaidų prioritetai, ir todėl priverčia „draustis”? Aš nemanau.

Matėme, kokia diskusija panašiais klausimais vyko JAV. JAV Barako Obamos visuotinio sveikatos draudimo planas patvirtintas. Tačiau mes nebūtinai turime laikytis panašių principų. Juk egzistuoja ne tik žmogaus teisė į sveikatinimo paslaugas. Teisė priimti sprendimus dėl savo gyvenimo (draustis ar nesidrausti) yra ne mažiau svarbi. Kaip ir pareiga patirti tokio pasirinkimo pasekmes pačiam, o ne primesti jas visuomenei.

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komentarai (975) | “Apie privalomąjį sveikatos (ne)draudimą Lietuvoje (ir Barako Obamos sveikatos programą)”

  1.   kire rašo:

    Simian Mobile Disco - Cruel Intention (HD Video & Sound) Official Video Clip.
    Paskaičiau, paskaičiau…

  2.   Tadas rašo:

    Laisve nesidraust yra geras dalykas. Bet faktas, kad jei tokiam “laisvunui” kas baisaus nutinka, uz tai turim moket mes visi. Todel jei nori gyvent civilizuotoj vakarietiskoj visuomenei ir megautis jos teikiamu komfortu turi suvokt, kad tai kainuoja, kainuoja ir gabaleli laisves. Free rideriu but malonu, bet paprastai jei tuo nori uzsiimt ne laukinej gamtoj, aplinka tuo nebuna patenkinta.

  3.   Remigijus Šimašius rašo:

    Tadai,

    Jau kelintame paties komentare stebiuosi ir neatsistebiu kaip galima skaityti ir neįskaityti tai, kas juodu ant balto parašyta… Taigi juk ir rašau, kad jei neapsidraudęs susergi, tai išlaidų neturėtų apmokėti kiti visuomenės nariai.

    Remigijus

  4.   Tadas rašo:

    Kad toks modelis neveikia praktikoj… Galu gale vis tiek mokam visi solidariai, o nemokantis imokos tikisi, kad jei pats neiissikapstys, tai kiti netures kur detis ir tures padet.

  5.   jonas rašo:

    o ka daryti indvidualiu imoniu savininkams, kurie neturi darbo, bet negali registruotis darbo birzoje? o gal jie su savo 1 zmogaus imonele PRIVALO tureti darbo visada? ar likviduotis ir sulaukus menko uzsakymo dirbti nelegaliai? taip kazkas pasakys: sustabdyk veikla… o ka daryti jei pasitaikys koks darbelis? vel atnaujinti? dar graziau, kad VMI veikla leidzia stabdyti tik nuo metu pradzios ir isregistruoja is pvm moketoju. KAS MAN PASAKYS KA DARYTI? bedarbiu buti negaliu, sirgti negaliu, uz medicinines paslaugas visada mokejau ir mokesiu, is nieko nieko neprasiau ir neprasysiu.

  6.   Aurimas rašo:

    Aš vieno nesuprantu ir niekur nerandu doro paaiškinimo.
    Išėjau iš darbo, naujo neieškau, nes noriu šiek tiek pailsėti. Į Darbo biržą nesikreipiu, tad kitais metais teks susimokėti PSD po 72 Lt už nedarbo mėnesį. Ar tai reiškia, kad dabar galiu drąsiai naudotis visomis sveikatos apsaugos sistemos paslaugomis? Pvz profilaktiškai pasitikrinti sveikatą - juk dabar daug laisvo laiko turiu. Ar nereikia bijoti, kad susilaužius ranką teks susimokėti už peršvietimą, tvarstymą ir t.t.?

  7.   rasa rašo:

    įdomu,kodėl apie šį ‘genialų’ sprendimą garsiai prašnekta tik dabar,juk ,jei būtų žinoję,mokesčių nemokėtojai galėjo jau priš metus kokiu nors būdu apsidrausti,o nelikti skolingi brangiajai valstybei…Kažin,iš ko susimokės tas nesibaigiančias skolas?Negi visus susodins?

  8.   Mindaugas rašo:

    Remigijau,

    Reikėtų Jums kartą atsikvošėti ir suprasti, kad yra sričių kuriose laukinis kapitalizmas paprasčiausiai neveikia. Juk ne dėl to, jog JAV sveikatos draudimo sistema veikė puikiai Barakas Obama nusprendė ją reformuoti… Priešingai, reformuota ji buvo dėl to jog neveikė.

    Sakoma, kad protingi mokosi iš kitų klaidų, mažiau protingi – iš savų, o kvailiai nepasimoko nei iš savų, nei iš svetimų.

    Tad kodėl nepasimokius iš JAV klaidų ir pabuvus protingais?

  9.   123-nematomaranka.lt rašo:

    Mindaugai,
    jeigu Obama būtų sveikatos draudimo sistemą reformavęs į gerąją pusę, jį būtų galima pasveikinti. Bet po kelių metų paaiškės, kad problemų sveikatos apsaugos sistemoje JAV tik padaugėjo…

  10.   rasa rašo:

    beje,nesu prieš draudimą,tik jau ne tokia,prievartine,forma,kokia yra Lietuvoje.Odel solidarumo-kiek yra draustųjų,kurie NIEKADA nesikreipė į sveikatos įstaigas,bet vis tiek mokėjo įmokas!Tai kas jiems grąžins ‘nepanaudotas’lėšas?Klausimas,žinoma,retorinis…

  11.   Mindaugas rašo:

    123-nematomaranka.lt,

    O kas sakė, kad “po kelių metų paaiškės, kad problemų sveikatos apsaugos sistemoje JAV tik padaugėjo”? Jūs? O kas Jūs toks? Kokia Jūsų kompetencija šiuo klausimu?

    Tuo tarpu daug protingų dėdžių ir tetų (tarp jų ir Nobelio premijos laureatų) teigia, kad to nebus. Aš linkęs tikėti jais, tuo labiau, kad ir argumentai jų rimti (pvz. tokio tipo sveikatos apsaugos sistema veikia Šveicarijoj ir kiek man yra žinoma jie veikia puikiai).

  12.   kestutis rašo:

    Pritariu gerb. TM nuomonei.
    Esu gydytojas ir puikiai suprantu esama padeti.
    Nemokamu pietu nebuna…
    Uz sugedusio automobilio remonta reikia moketi.
    Uz kirpejo, odontologo, advokato i.t.t. paslaugas reikia moketi.
    Kodel kai kurie tautieciai nori, kad uz ju sveikatos prieziuros paslaugas moketi kiti (t.y. mokesciu moketojai)?
    nemoke
    Pilnai pritariu ministrui - jeigu nenori draustis, uz gydyma turi moketi pagal kainorasti, ir viskas butu civilizuota.
    Panasiai, kaip dabar yra su CAD - juk geriau sumoketi 1 karta metuose 100-160 lt ir buti ramus, kad tavo galimai padarytus nuostolius padengs draudimas.
    O kas del medicinos - niekas zmogui numirti neleis, butinoji pagalba visuomet bus suteikta, o uz tolimesni gydyma neapdraustieji privalo ir privales sumoketi.
    Negales sumoketi is karto, tegul moka dalimis , bet skola turi grazinti.
    O jeigu ne - yra anstoliu institucija.
    Tai butu iseitis.

  13.   kestutis rašo:

    Pritariu gerb. TM nuomonei.
    Esu gydytojas ir puikiai suprantu esama padeti.
    Nemokamu pietu nebuna…
    Uz sugedusio automobilio remonta reikia moketi.
    Uz kirpejo, odontologo, advokato i.t.t. paslaugas reikia moketi.
    Kodel kai kurie tautieciai nori, kad uz ju sveikatos prieziuros paslaugas moketi kiti (t.y. mokesciu moketojai)?
    nemoke
    Pilnai pritariu ministrui - jeigu nenori draustis, uz gydyma turi moketi pagal kainorasti, ir viskas butu civilizuota.
    Panasiai, kaip dabar yra su CAD - juk geriau sumoketi 1 karta metuose 100-160 lt ir buti ramus, kad tavo galimai padarytus nuostolius padengs draudimas.
    O kas del medicinos - niekas zmogui numirti neleis, butinoji pagalba visuomet bus suteikta, o uz tolimesni gydyma neapdraustieji privalo ir privales sumoketi.
    Negales sumoketi is karto, tegul moka dalimis , bet skola turi grazinti.
    O jeigu ne - yra anstoliu institucija.
    Tai butu iseitis.

  14.   nevarbu rašo:

    kestuti, is kur trauket tokius skaicius kaip 100-160 litu? galima informacijos saltini?

  15.   Karvė rašo:

    Aš manau, kad pagrindinė problema yra ta, kad net ir sumokėjęs tuos 72Lt/mėn žmogus vis tiek už gydymą turėjo mokėti. Tai būtent ir yra pagrindinis visuomenės pasipiktinimo objektas. Todėl puikiai tinka pavadinimas, kad tai mokestis už orą, nes nėra jokio būdo, kaip tu galėtum paskui už jį gauti naudos - t.y. gydymą.

  16.   Giedrius rašo:

    Pagrindinė problema yra ne tai, kad sumokėjęs nieko negauni, o tai, kad negali gyventi nesusilaukdamas fizinio smurto net jei tau nieko iš nieko nereikia, t.y. negali rinktis.

  17.   kestutis to nesvarbu ir karve rašo:

    1. Ne saltinis svarbiausia, o pats principas.
    (CAD pries 2 metus tiek kainavo LD)
    2. As pilnai sutinku su (atsipr. karve), kad realiai tie 72 Lt nieko nesprendzia.
    Pav. LV jau senai egzistuoja draudimine medicina,(yra 3 draudimo polisai - paprastas, sidabrinis ir auksinis) Kiekvienas polisas kainuoja skirtingai ir kompensuoja skirtingas sveikatos prieziuros paslaugas. Uz bazini polisa suteikiamas bazines paslaugas, uz auksini - visas.
    Tai normalu.
    Taip isivaizduoju ir LT draudimine medicina.

  18.   Baikit tyciotis rašo:

    Visoje sioje istorijoje tiek neteisybes, kad baisu. Visu pirma, patys politikai pripazista, jog daugelis instituciju nevykde savo darbo (kazin kodel, gal kad patys nezinojo), privalomas draudimas galioja jau nuo 2003, kodel tik dabar zmonem skolas israse?Kodel dabar zmonems ateis laiskai su skolomis, o vat po menesio nemokejimo neatejo?Gal todel, kad tik praeita savaite koks protingas dede pamate istatyme spraga ir sugalvojo pasipelnyti is bedarbiu. O jie patys susimasto, kodel ne visi stoja i darbo birza, kiek yra situaciju, jog negali ten stovet (bandai laime uzsienyje, nes tevynej tragiska situacija, darbo birzoj seniau labai graziai isbraugdavo is sarasu, atsisakius 3 kartus darbu (nors dabar suzinojau, kad jie tokios teises neturejo), o prisiregistruoti leidziama tik po 6 men, kiek kaime zmoniu, kurie neturi nuvykti galimybiu iki darbo birzos ir t.t.). Kodel skelbiama, kad atbuline data pataisu daryt negalima, bet isejusiems nemokamu atostogu - galima. Visuomeneje dabar tiek pasipiktinimo gal todel, kad pernai nedarbas buvo labai didelis ir tokiu “skolininku” ne viena desimtis tukstanciu…Atsibuskit seimunai ir nebekankinkit paprastu bedarbiu zmoneliu, kuriems ir taip gyvenimas nesaldus, o jus darot juos nusikalteliais skolininkais, pasiruose atimti paskutine vista…Kiek yra dabar tokiu, kurie 864 lt vienoj kruvoj nera mate seniai. Kaip galima mastyti, kad jei neesi darbo birzoje, vadinasi is kazko gyveni. O nuo kada darbo birza tapo pragyvenimo saltiniu?Ypac jaunimui, neturint 1,5 metu stazo, jokios pasalpos nepriklauso. is ko jie gyvena, aisku, is tevu…Sitas istatymas tiek paliete zmoniu, kad turbut patys neisivaizduojate. Butu pradeje igyvendint 2007-2008 metais, kada tokio zodzio kaip “krize” praktiskai nebuvo, gal netaip skaudu, bet dabar…Nejau neatsiras nei viena institucija, kuri apgins vargsa bedarbi???labai tikiuosi, kad darydami pataisa pagalvos nors karta apie paprasta zmogu…

  19.   jonas rašo:

    Anot finansu ministres I.Simonytes „Ta prievolė galiojo seniai, tiesa, ji nebuvo realiai pritaikyta“. Tai yra 2003 metais priimtas istatymas ir tik „šiemet buvo įdėta daugiau įdirbio, kad prievolė būtų vykdoma“. As nekeliu atsakomybes klausimo, kodel biurokratai nevykdo istatymuose numatytu prievoliu, nors labai keista kai vel nera atsakingu…

    Mane asmeniskai, o ir daugeli zmoniu, domintu mokestines senaties termino taikymas siuo konkreciu atveju. Mokestine senatis yra 5 metai, PSD prievole galioja nuo 2003 metu, taigi pagal galiojancius istatymus VMI privalo vykdyti mokesciu isieskojima ne tik uz 2009 metus, bet ir uz 2008, 2007, 2006 ir 2005 metus. Ar zmones apie tai zino? Kodel VMI siandien vadovaujasi A.Kubiliaus ir/arba I.Simonytes manymais tokia prievole taikyti tik uz 2009 metus? Kodel gi ne uz visus 5 metus? Ar tai nereiskia, kad siandien biurokratu manymas sukuria precedenta taikyti istatymuose nenumatytas isimtis? Tarsi “apriboti” senaties termina iki vieneriu metu vienam mokesciui…

    Taciau bet kada tiek VMI, tiek A.Kubilius ir/arba I.Simonyte gali pradeti manyti kitaip ir pareikalauti zmoniu susimoketi uz visus 5 metus. Jie turi tokia istatymuose numatyta galia ir net pareiga: pasikartosiu PSD prievole galioja nuo 2003 metu, 5 metu mokestines senaties terminas nuo 2001 metu (LR mokesciu administravimo istatymas).

    Ar nelaukia daugelio ir taip skurdziai gyvenanciu zmoniu dar vienas “teisetas” akibrokstas? O gal biurokratai NEBEPRIVALO vykdyti istatymu?

  20.   nesamas ligonis-kęstučiui rašo:

    tikrai ,nemokamų pietų nebūna,bet LIietuvoj moki ir už tai,kad NEVALGAI jokių pietų,t.y.,už menamus pietus.Aš už tokias paslaugas,kai susimoki jas gavęs,o ne už galimybę gauti tai,ko galbūt man niekad nereikes

  21.   Valdas rašo:

    liberalai >>> LAUK >>> velniop LUBIZmą, tegyvuoja respublika, neva socdemai kartu su Ši… lauk>>> skatjertju .. kaip sako … neolibero…„sopcdemam

  22.   viz3 rašo:

    Nei viena vyriausybė per 20 metų nebuvo padariusi tokios savižudiškos kiaulystės.
    Tą nesąmonę su PSD vis tiek atšauks (gal būt teismai), bet man rodos konservatorių partiją jau galime laikyti nebeegzistuojančia.
    Kubilius greitai pavydės Uokai ar Vagnoriui jų reitingų.

  23.   kestutis rašo:

    nesamui ligoniui -

    tamsta, pakartojei mano mintis. Taigi, sutinku 100%. TM ta pati sako.
    Puiku, nemokek dabar mokesi, kada ir kiek reikes.

    Prisiminkime Kestucio Glavecko atveji - kas mokeja jo gydymo islaidas USA ? (gal dar nesumoketa…)
    O, juk p. Glaveckas ne biednas buvo, bet apsidraude tik nuo nelaimingu atsitikimu ir persalimo ligu…
    Galejo pries kelione nusipirkti draudimo polisa uz 1500 USD ir nesuktu sau galvos del galimo MI ir jam draudimas pilnai butu kompensaves visas gydymo islaidas… (as taip manau)

  24.   kestutis rašo:

    patiko (is Delfi):
    Ponas Šimašiau, maniau Jūs protingesnis. Dabar Jūsų paaiskinimai skamba kaip anegdote:

    Atvaziavo vyras ir žmona į viešbutį pernakvoti. Apsigyveno, pernakvojo. Ryte, atsiskaitant už paslaugas, kasininkas sako klijentui, kad jis už paslaugas skolingas 200 Lt. Nustebęs klijentas puola aiškintis, taigi nakvynė dviems tik 100 Lt. Kodėl turiu mokėti 200 Lt? Tada kasininkas paaiškina, kad viešbutis turi restoraną ir baseiną ir klijentai turėjo galimybę jais pasinaudoti, todėl turi sumokėti viso 200 Lt. Žmogelis susimastė ir tarė kasininkui. -Aš manau, kad Jūs man skolingas 300 Lt. -Kodėl? Už ką? išpūtė akis kasininkas. -Matote tą gražią damą prie išėjimo? paklausė klijentas. - Matau. -Ji mano žmona. Jūs turėjote galimybę ja pasinaudoti. -Bet aš nieko nedariau, prieštaravo kasininkas. -Bet turėjote galimybę, tad esate skolingas.

    Moralą susigalvokite patys.

  25.   kęstučiui rašo:

    jei Tamsta iš tikrųjų gydytojas,tai gal tyčia darot tiek gramatinių klaidų?Ar tai iš daktaro mandrumo?

  26.   kestutis rašo:

    as rasau lotiniskai arba kitaip tariant - sms kalba.
    Kas nesuprantama, kur cia mandrumas?

    P.S.Zinoma, galeciau rasyti ir RU, EN ir LV, bet juk nesuprasi.

  27.   kęstučiui rašo:

    jei parašysi ‘lotiniškai’,tikrai nesuprasiu,nes moku lotynų,anglų ir t.t..Taigi,nesu toks mandras,kaip tu,nors baigęs Med.UNIVERSITETĄ.

  28.   Gediminas rašo:

    Ar Lietuvoje teisinėm priemonėm galima užsitikrinti teisę rinktis kur ir kada gydytis, bei priklausomai pasirinktų ir gautų paslaugų mokėti už tai ką gavai ?
    Jei Lietuvos teismai nepasiruošę spręsti žmogaus prigimtinės teisės rinktis,
    tai gal Europos teisingumo teismas čia galėtų tarti savo žodį ?!

  29.   kestutis rašo:

    status obiectivus - malosanata

  30.   kestutis TM rašo:

    Pasiulymas :
    kiekvienam, kuris moka uz sveikatos draudimas reikia isduoti draudimo polisa (ar elektronine kortele su mikroprocesoriumi), kur butu tvarkomi duomenis apie jo draustuma (panasiai kaip banko kredito korteles) ir niekam nekiltu jokiu nesupratimu - nori gydytis, pateik draudimo polisa , neturi - mokek, neturi pinigu - mokek skolan.
    Valstybe turi atsakyti tik uz soc. remtinus piliecius.
    Kazkodel uz busta ar automobilio paskolas moketi reikia, o uz medicinos -ne.
    Man pikta, kad kartais nedraustas pilietis gauna nemokama med. pagalba, o dirbantis ir draustas - uz tai moka.

  31.   kestuciui rašo:

    Kestuti,

    Jusu siuloma sveikatos draudimo sistema JAV veike ilga laika, taciau pries kelias savaites buvo pakeista. O pakeista ji buvo todel, kad neveike. T.y. sveikatos draudimas nemazai daliai salies gyventoju tapo neiperkamas, zmones, su bloga sveikatos istorija, buvo diskriminuojami jiems taikant didensnes sveikatos draudimo imokas. Rezultatas: 15% JAV gyventoju gyveno be sveikatos draudimo (ir mirdavo susirge kokia liga, kuria butu galima isgydyti, jei jie butu tureje draudima).

    Kodel Jus taip primygtinai siulote neveikencia sistema? ;]

  32.   Gediminas rašo:

    Sveikinu!!! Pagaliau teisingumo ministras aiškiai prabilo teisingumo vardan. Galėjo ir kur kas kategoriškiau pasisakyti, nes mokestinis reketas Lietuvoje jau visai susipykęs su sveiku protu.
    Komentatoriai agituojantys už solidarumą nieko nenutuokia apie teisingumą ir tikrąjį solidarumą. Įžūlų bukaprotišką žmonių plėšimą vadinti solidarumu gali tik demagogas-cinikas. Sveikatos paslaugų sistemos problemas galima iš esmės išspręsti tik privatizavus, ir laisvoji rinka čia veiktų kuo puikiausiai. Nors socialistai mano, kad „laukinis kapitalizmas“ čia neveiktų. Tik „pamiršta“ argumentus pateikti.
    Teisūs komentatoriai, teigiantys politinį Kubiliaus vyriausybės bankrotą. Aš manau, kad, visų pirma, šis Seimas ir jo rinkta vyriausybė bankrutavo moraliai. Dar niekada teisingumas Lietuvoje nebuvo mindomas taip beatodairiškai. To negalima pateisinti jokia krize.

  33.   Dina rašo:

    Ka jus cia nusisnekat, mano tevas jau 10 metu nedirba valdiskam darbe, nes yra laisvai samdomas statybininkas, 10 metu ne karto neapsilanke valstybineje ligonineje, danti reikejo gydyt privaciai pinigus mokejo, reikejo gydytis odos liga, gydytoja pareikalavo simtus, o stai draugelis, stovi darbo birzoje tiek pat meteliu, uzeina gerynes, tai paskui is kart i ligonine guldo, ir gydo kaip psichikos ligoni, zinot kiek toks gydymas atsiena - 4000 lt, o gyvena sitas zmogelis taip sakant rumuose, nes irgi dirba nelegaliai. Skirtumas tik tas kad stovi darbo birzoje, reikalauja pasalpos ir dar nemokamo maitinimo mokykloje savo vaikams.
    Kitas dalykas, pensininkai. Jei tokia valdzia atbukusi tegul pasiziuri kas daugiausiai lankosi ligoninese, ka jie moka? As viena kart nuejau, turejau temperaturos tai net pas seimos daktare negalegau is karto papulti, teko keliaut i procedurini. Klausimas, kokias pensininkai proceduras praeina, gal temperatura kiekviena karta tenka jiems matuotis?
    Ir pabaigai prisiminkim rusu laikus, kas tada uz kokia sveikatos prieziura mokejo, uzteko, kad atejo i ligonine “zmogus”, ir is kart gyde, bei jokiu popieriuku neprasydavo. Dabar tai man susidaro toks vaizdas kad nedirbantis ir nestovintis darbo birzoje yra zemesnio lygio nei suo, jis netgi gyvybiskai svarbios pagalbos negali sulaukti, ir prie ko cia pinigai, kur zmoniskumas, atsipeikekit!!!

  34.   Dina rašo:

    ir dar nifiga neikertu, kam mes tuos mokescius mokam, taigi sodrai tik 3 proc., jei neklystu, o kur pvm uz kiekviena preke ar paslauga (taigi net uz sviezia mesa ir darzoves ir tai pvm pakele), kur akcizai uz benzina, cigaretes, alkoholi, cukru, kur zemes mokestis, kur verslininkai n mokesciu turi sumoket, o taigi nieko negaunam, uz moksla mokek, uz sveikata mokek, uz kelius - mokek, tai jus man pasakykit, ka mums uz tai duos valstybe?

  35.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Kažin, o *kaip* reikėtų priminti tam susirgusiam žmogui, jei net eutanazija dar neįteisinta…? Gal reikėtų pasiūlyti virvę su muilu? O gal prieš užtrenkiant duris pasiūlyti sukrapštyti kokius 100 kLt inkstų persodinimo operacijai iš kur nori, jei gyventi nori? O gal jam bankas suteiktų paskolą (jei net JAV iki reformų *privatūs* draudikai tokius tiesiog išmesdavo; atsisakydavo drausti arba stipriai užkeldavo kainas, kad nebebūtų įmanoma išsimokėti), jei po operacijos, po sunkaus ir brangaus gydymo tikimybė išgyventi penkis metus, tarkime, siekia 0.5? Kaip reikėtų tam neapsidraudusiam, galbūt merdinčiam *avinui* paaiškinti (ir svarbiausia — aiškinti, moralizuoti), kad jis kaltas dėl savo pasirinkimo, jei visi būdai yra tiesiog nehumaniški, žiaurūs, o kraštutiniu, nors ir turbūt ir ne retu atveju, atsisakymas gydyti reiškia pasekminę mirtį ir merdėjimą prieš tai?
    Jūs galbūt atsakysit, tai yra gi tas saugiklis, susimoki prispyrus reikalui 3xMMA (2400 Lt) ir turi tą draudimą? O aš atsakysiu, kad tai lygiai TAIP PAT NETEISINGA visų mokančiųjų šį mokestį (pabrėžiu, kad visų pirma tai yra draudimo mokestis, o ne paslaugų (išsi)pirkimas, kas tūlo liberalo mąstymui dažnai yra sunkiai suvokiama). Tuomet, nereikėtų laikyti avinais ir visų (kitų) mokančiųjų šį mokestį (kur kas didesnį, nei 9% nuo minimalios algos) nuo savo pajamų, tuomet ir jie turėtų turėti teisę _pasirinkti_ (nemokėti) ir susimokėti iš esmės vienkartinį mokestį rimčiau susirgę. Gerbiamas ministre, pasikalbėkit su savo kolega, eksministru ir paklaus(y)kit jo (klausytis ilgai nereikės, nes atsakymas bus labai trumpas) kaip galėtų tokia sveikatos sistema funkcionuoti…
    Ir jei neįžvelgčiau labai gudrios populizmo (pagirtina, tikrai pagirtina) dozės taip meistriškai suderintos su liberaliu (ideologiniu) požiūriu, tai jau ir neklausčiau kodėl nutylit (na, juk tikrai suvokiat), kad leidus “pasirinkti”, pasirenkančiųjų gydymo išlaidas (minėtas 2400 Lt saugiklis vargiai atperka tokias išlaidas, veikiau tik atgraso ar kompensuoja tik iš dalies) iš esmės kompensuotų tie mokantieji, kurie neturėtų tokio pasirinkimo teisės, o tai VĖLGI REIKŠTŲ DIDESNIUS MOKESČIUS.

  36.   MP rašo:

    O man norisi palyginti su privaciu sveikatos draudimu, kuriuo teko naudotis dirbant vienoje ar tai kitoje darbuotojais besirupinancioje imoneje. Tokio draudimo imoka darbdaviui atsieina apie 150 Lt / men (pries tai kai valstybe dar nuskalpuoja papildomus mokescius uz pajamas natura:), draudimo limitas metams ~10,000 Lt. Galima rinktis praktiskai bet kuria privacia gydymo istaiga ar net valstybine, jei sirdis tokios pasiilgo. Be abejo toks draudimas padengia gydymo islaidas, kurios nevirsyja draudimo limito ir papildomai gaunami nemokami skiepai, dantu profilaktika, zenkli nuolaida sporto klubui ir pan.
    Aisku rimtesnio susirgimo atveju 10,000 Lt tikrai zemos lubos, taciau is akies taip paskaiciavus, tai draudimo limita kilstelejus iki 100,000 Lt / metams (suma neprastai sauganti ir nuo sunkiu ligu), imoka ~2xgubetu (reiktu tiksliau pasiklausti aktuariju). Jei zmogus issilavines ir patyres specialistas, tai atlyginimas pries mokescius neretai siekia ir 4600 Lt (3500 Lt po mokesciu), tai jo valstybinis sveikatos draudimo mokestis yra ~ 414Lt (aisku valstybe gudrauja ir dali tos sumos issireikalauja is darbdavio, bet nelabai didelis skirtumas ar darbuotojas juos gautu “ant popieriaus”, o paskui valstybe juos “paimtu”), bet esminis skirtumas, tai kad valstybes sveikatos prieziuros paslaugos kokybe keliskart prastesne. (Pabandykite nueiti i poliklinika neuzsiregistrave 2-3 dienas is anksto)
    Situacija gaunas daugiau nei dviprasmiska - zmogus galetu gauti kokybiskesne ir pigesne sveikatos prieziura, jei tik jam leistu rinktis..
    As nemanau, kad turetu buti leidziama rinktis netureti sveikatos draudimo, bet tikrai turetu buti leidziama tureji ji alternatyvu, pvz privatu, tai sukurtu sveika konkurencija valstybinei sveikatos apsaugos sistemai.

  37.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Na, MP, pvz JAV paprastos, nekomplikuotos apendicito operacijos kaina siekia 30-40k$ (užsibūnant ligoninėje iki poros, keleto dienų). Ir tai tikrai laisvoje rinkoje, tokioje laisvoje, kad laisvesnės ir liberalesnės pasaulyje turbūt ir NĖRA (tik libertarų siekiamybėse ir utopijose). Sveikatos kaina toje tikrai laisvoje rinkoje taip išsigimė, kad tai tapo ir valstybės ekonomine problema (be to, kad sveikatos paslaugų prieinamumas ir sveikatingumas prastas, nes daug kam tiesiog sunkiai įperkamas ar apskritai neįperkamas), kurią gana taikliai ir glaustai apibūdina Warren’o Buffett’o frazė ir pateikiami skaičiai:
    On March 1, 2010, billionaire Warren Buffett (who is considered one of the world’s most savvy investors) said that the high costs paid by U.S. companies for their employees’ health care put them at a competitive disadvantage. He compared the roughly 17% of GDP spent by the U.S. on health care with the 9% of GDP spent by much of the rest of the world, noted that the U.S. has fewer doctors and nurses per person, and said, “[t]hat kind of a cost, compared with the rest of the world, is like a tapeworm eating at our economic body.

    O pačio skaičiavimai/įvertinimai kiek naivūs ta prasme, kad pervertini privatų gydymą, ypač čia, Lietuvoje, kai/kur rinka maža.
    Kur visa brangi diagnostinė ir medicininė aparatūra, visa būtina infrastruktūra, kuri valstybės pirkta, įrengta turbūt/galbūt ir “nuostolingai”( neatsiperka pragmatine prasme; per kiek laiko atsiperka tomografas, jei jis apskritai atsiperka?).
    Ką galėtų pasiūlyti privati medicina šiuo atveju — labai didelius įkainius arba nieko, nes nuostolinga.
    Žinių ir patirties, akademinis, mokslinis potencialas (kur keletas besispecializuojančių chirurgų, dvi sesutės su anesteziologu, o kur vietoje ir dešimtys kitų/įvairių sričių specialistų, pagalbinis personalas, operacinės, tyrimų centrai, laboratorijos ir visa sistema jų bendradarbiavimui)?
    Nenuvertink valstybinio lygio; nepamiršk kur (vis dar IR iš esmės) gimsta ir išugdomi talentingi ir profesionalūs gydytojai (kurie paskui ir privačia praktika užsiima) — valstybiniuose universitetuose, klinikose, ligoninėse, t.y. valstybiniame-akademiniame lopšyje. Apskritai, manau, kad Lietuva iš sovietmečio paveldėjo gana aukšto lygio, išvystytą/išplėstą valstybinę sveikatos apsaugos sistemą (būtent šia, institucine-akademine, prasme); tokios, žinoma, nebepajėgiame išlaikyti, daug specialistų jau nutekėjo, tačiau privatus sektorius (apimtimi ir sritimis) kol kas (ir apskritai, perspektyvoje) tegriebia grietinėlę (vien jau dėl to, kad vidutinis atlyginimas ir jo mediana kiek tesiekia, kai pensininkų skaičius koks?), o visą sveikatos apsaugos liūto dalį “veža” ir užtikrina valstybė.

  38.   Vytautas rašo:

    Kiek suprantu gerbiamas ministras paprasčiausiai siūlo įteisinti eutanaziją, nesbe to laisvanoriškas draudimas neveiks- beviltiški neturtingi ligonys jo neįpirks ir tai gali būti pripažinta kankinimu…
    Nesuprantu, kodėl ministras pamiršo privalomo civilinės atsakomybės draudimo atvejus? Ne tik vairuojant automobilį tokios laisvės nėra. Kuo sveikata išimtis- irgi yra viešas interesas.
    Labai įdomi loginė klaida. Bet kokiam draudime, draudiminio įvykio atveju, kaštus dengia tie, kurie to įvykio nepatyrė, t.y. nesinaudojantys paslauga, nes paslaugos kaina yra daug didesnė už įmoką.
    JAV sveikatos apsaugos sistema nėra pati efektyviausia pasaulyje. Kodėl turime sekti pratu pavyzdžių. Vaistai, beje JAV vieni brangiausių, daug brangesni, nei Kanadoj, kur sveikatos apsauga yra visuotinė…

  39.   kestutis TM rašo:

    Cia ir susiduria 2 ideologijos - konservatyvizmas ir socializmas.
    Konservatoriai tvirtai pasisako uz nuosavybes nelieciamuma ir privatuma, o socialistai (socialdemokratija ar kitaip) - uz visuotini solidaruma.
    Is prigimties as socialdemokr., bet mane netenkina nei dabartine situacija sveikatos apsaugos srityje, nei siuloma.
    As manu - jeigu zmogus nori kazka gauti is valstybes, tai ir privalo valstybei ir kazka duoti.
    Ar nepikta, kad 20 m dirbau, mokejau didelius mokescius, o kai susirgsi - gausi sveikatos paslaugas “bazinio krepselio” dydzio.

    Sutinku ir uzjauciu tuos, kurie neturi darbo…
    Bet ar tai tik valstybes problema? Kodel niekas neatleidzia is kitokiu prievoliu - pav. banko kreditu grazinimu, alimentu i.t. (ir niekas neklausia- ar dirbi , ar esi bedarbis)
    Netikiu, kad visi bedarbiai tokie neturtingi, kad negaletu sdumoketi uz gydyma - gal jie yra isnuomave zeme, turi akcijas, automobilius….
    Dar karta sakau, kad vargingais ir socialiai remtinais valstybe privalo pasirupinti, o sveikatos apsaugoje turi ivykti esminiai pakitimai

  40.   Gediminas rašo:

    Bėda ta, kad vienąkart įteisinus „socialiai remtino“ statusą, tų „remtinų“ skaičius auga nesulaikomai. Žmogaus prigimtis yra tokia, kokia yra, jos nepakeisi įstatymu. Todėl visuomenė turi pasirūpinti tik tais, kurie iš tikrųjų negali savimi pasirūpinti. Ir bet kurioje normalioje visuomenėje tai ir vyksta, bet paternalistinė Lietuvos valdžios politika tam užkerta kelią.

  41.   jonas rašo:

    o kodel jus lietuva lyginat su JAV? korektiska butu ziureti i panasaus kalibro salis ir tada lyginti medicininiu paslaugu kainas. GDP (PPP) per capita:

    6 United States 46,443

    50 Lithuania 15,803
    51 Russia 15,039
    52 Gabon 14,421
    53 Libya 14,381

  42.   Dalia rašo:

    Skambės keistai, bet nustebau, perskaičius ministro Šimašiaus mintis. Jau atrodė, kad visi išejo iš proto, arba atvirkščiai — laiko kitus tokiais.
    Esu iš tų, kurie susimoka uz gydymą, ir dazniausiai čia, Lietuvoje (naiviai tikejau, kad tuo pakeliu vietinę ekonomiką, o ne atvirkščiai — darau nusikaltimą.) Čia praleidžiu daug laiko, esu deklaravus gyv. vietą, nedirbu- viskas pries mane. Nepaisant to, mano padėtis geresnė už mano kaimynės, kuri moka 2 PSD — vieną atskaitomą iš atlyginimo biudžetineje
    įstaigoje, kitą — privalomą, nes perka verslo liudijimą šeimos verslui– kaimo turizmo sodybai. Kai ji susirgs, gal ją paguldys ant dviejų lovų ar suleis dvigubą dozę vaistų? Įdomu, ar ponas Šimašius yra vienintelis blaiviai mąstantis žmogus vyriausybeje ir Seime. Tikiuosi, kad bent jau ne
    vienintelis iš Liberalų Sąjudžio, už kurį visada balsuojame. Bet kodėl tie žmones nieko nebando pakeisti? Ar tikrai keli normaliai mąstantys žmonės nieko negali? Beje, mano vyras, JAV pilietis,labai nepalankiai vertina B.Obamos sveikatos reformą.

  43.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Miela Dalia, kai/jei man dvigubai pakelia atlyginimą, tai aš TAIP PAT susimoku dvigubą PSD (dvigubai daugiau, nei iki tol); manęs taip pat niekas ne(pa)guldo ant dviejų lovų…
    Tai mokestis nuo pajamų (nediferencijuojant pajamų šaltinių), arba nuo kiekvieno pajamų šaltinio. Konkrečiu atveju, tai matyt kažkoks saugiklis (kaip bebūtų liūdna ir ironiška — jie todėl, kad mes patys linkę piktnaudžiauti įstatymų spragomis, lengvatomis ar jas, kaip labai madinga išsireikšti, *išnaudoti/pasinaudoti*, nors visai ne tuo tikslu ir ne tokiais mąstais, kuris/kurie buvo numatyti; tenka patiems dėl to ir kentėti) ar smulkųjį verslą balansuojantis momentas (IV pagal pažymą mokamas pajamų mokestis, o ne vienkartinis mokestis), nes nuo PSD atleidžiama, jei vykdoma _individuali_veikla_pagal_pažymą_ ir gaunamos darbo užmokesčio pajamos ar patenkama į valstybės lėšomis draudžiamųjų kategoriją.

  44.   rasa rašo:

    bendrai,man labai keista,kaip atsirado šioj vyriausybėj vienas tikrai kompetetingas ir,kas keisčiausia,sąžiningas ministras.P.Remigijau,sveikinu Jus.Be ironijos.

  45.   Dalia rašo:

    Na gerai, Laimonai, mokestis nuo pajamų. Tai vadinkim daiktus tikraisiais
    vardais. Bet neišeina, nes jį turi moketi ir jų neturintys. Mane iš principo
    piktina ne kokio nors mokesčio buvimas( sutikčiau moketi pilietybes mokestį, kol dar jos neatėme, nes kai gausiu JAV, tikriausiai atims, arba
    kad ir koki solidarumo su skurstančiais mokestį), o jo nelogiškumas. Aš
    pernai ir visą laiką, kiek nedirbu, mokejau už visas medicinos paslaugas.
    Už ką aš skolinga?

  46.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Mokestis nuo pajamų, kai gauni (darbo, veiklos) pajamas. Ir minimalus, “fiksuotas” mokestis (ne nuo pajamų), kai jų (tokių) negauni (gyveni, tarkime, iš santaupų ar iš kitų šaltinių). Skolinga už tai, kad nevykdėte prievolės draustis, nebuvote apsidraudusi (tam reikėjo mokėti kas mėnesį), o mokesčio prievolė nuo to niekur nedingsta; sakyčiau tai baudos ekvivalentas, tik pas mus jį traktuoja turbūt kaip mokesčio nepriemoką ir dar žiū dėl visuomenės pasipiktinimo ir spaudimo kaip nors išinterpretuos taip, kad ir jo mokėti nereikėtų, nors tai mano galva jau grimasos… Neveltui ministras Šukys (teisininkas) spyriojasi; supranta…
    O va JAV, taip ir pavadino daiktus tikraisiais vardais: mokėsi arba draudimo mokestį ARBA baudą, kaip suprantu, _negaudamas_ draudimo. Tai yra bene visiškai analogiška situacija, kaip ir mūsiškė, tik tiek, kad JAV visuomenei bus dorai išaiškinta (na, jie savo mokesčius skaičiuoti ir mokėti jau įpratę), ji šiai tvarkai bus nuosekliai pripratinta, paruošta.
    Bauda ar nepriemokos išieškojimas gana logiškas ir man tai atrodo sąžininga, ypač jei atsiminus, kad tokia prievolė (draustis bedarbiams ir neregistruotiems darbo biržoje, mokėti mėnesines įmokas) galioja nuo pat sveikatos draudimo įstatymo priėmimo, t.y. bene 14 metų ir per tai niekas iki šiol nepasistengė šio įstatymo vykdyti, nors išaiškinti, paruošti tokiam mokesčiui, neatsižvelgiant į šį faktą, TIKRAI REIKĖJO GERIAU.

  47.   Dalia rašo:

    TAI JAU TIKRAI REIKĖJO. Prieš gerą pusmetį, prispausta sveikatos problemų, parašiau klausimą Valst. ligonių kasoms apie neapdraustųjų gydymo tvarką ir gavau išsamų atsakymą, tik jame nebuvo net užsiminta
    apie tai, kad neapdraustųjų pagal įstatymą neturėtų būti. Dabar gi to atsakymo autorius, VLK atstovas spaudai savo interviu visiems aiškina, kaip seniai tas įstatymas galioja. Būtų buvę gražu iš jo pusės ir man apie tai pranešti, kol dar nebuvau pasirinkusi pažeisti istatymą susimokedama
    už gydymą. Skambinau ir VMI, kur vėlgi išgirdau tik skaičius ir įsigaliojimo terminus ir nė užuominos apie privalomą draudimą. Kai dėl JAV — valio–
    pagaliau pasivijom ir pralenkėm!

  48.   Nuomone rašo:

    Taip, galima kalbėti apie žmogaus teisę nesidrausti ir paskui neprašyti sveikatinimo paslaugų be susimokėjimo. Tačiau… Jei atvažiuos nėščia moteris, kuriai laikas gimdyti, ir neturės draudimo, ar gydytojai tikrai leis laiką reikalaudami iš jos pinigų, kurių ji tiesiog nenorės mokėti (eilinis idiotiškas įsitikinimas, kad nieko nemokant vis viena viskas turi būti nemokama)? Juk negali jos išmesti į gatvę. Kas tada už tai mokės? Ir kaip tada su kitų žmonių teisėmis??? Negalima leisti šito rinktis, jau užtektinai daugelyje sričių tam tikri sluoksniai gyvena iš kitų žmonių kišenės: juk važinėja mašinomis kažkieno išlaikomais keliais, vaikai eina į kažkieno išlaikomas mokyklas, galų gale, žiūri nacionalinę televiziją ir t.t. Už ką tas neliečiamumas, jei Lietuvos pilietis negali užpakalio pakelti?

  49.   0=0 rašo:

    Nuomone,
    ir kas baisaus atsitiktu, jei tai nedraustai moteriskei suteiktu visas reikalingas paslaugas, israsytu saskaita ir isleistu namo be dideliu aiskininimusi?
    Na, parodytu po to Ruta, kaip “baisiai” elgiamasi musu valstybej, kaip neduoda nemokamai to, uz ka reikia moketi, na dar zurnaliste “ono” baisiu balsu paklausinetu teisingumo ministro, ar taip teisinga…
    O gal stai as nutarsiu, kad jei jau reikia uz operacija moketi ta tukstanti, tai geriau normaliam tikram draudimui, kad reikalui atsitikus veztu su sraigtasparniu, operuotu gerai mokantis ir priziuretu po to kaip giminaiti…
    O solidaruma su visuomene parodysiu mokedamas darbuotojams geras algas.

  50.   Gediminas rašo:

    Normaliam, natūraliam ir sveikam solidarumui visuomenėje klostytis trukdė ir tebetrukdo valdžios protekcionistinė politika. Trukdo ir laisvanoriškam sveikatos draudimui, kuris visai neblogai susitvarkytų su minėtomis problemomis. Nėra ta laisvoji rinka tokia baisi, kaip socialistams atrodo.

  51.   To nuomone rašo:

    Beje, nescioji nuo 7 men ir taip gauna sveikatos draudima, nevykes pavyzdys:)Jei ji pries tai ir moketu tuos 72 lt, nuo 7 menesio nebereiketu:)

  52.   Gi: rašo:

    Geriausias butu gydytojo Kestucio paminetas atvejis - uz skirtingas imokas butu gaunamas skirtingas paslaugu paketas. Cia butu tas kompromisinis variantas tarp solidarumo ir privataus draudimo.

    O siaip solidarumas yra pigesnis, maziau rizikingas (daug apdraustuju, valstybines ligonines dirba ne del pelno) ir mazinantis socialine atskirti.

    Privatus draudimas ypac nepatrauklus senstant zmogui (dideja imokos), mazejant pajamoms (sumazejus imokoms, gaunama maziau naudos) ir susirgus letinemis ligomis.

    Apie sistemos efektyvuma cia nesneku, galiu tik pasidziaugti, kad pernai Nobelio premija skirta butent uz tyrinejimus, skirtus bendro turto naudojimo efektyvumui (Elinor Ostrom).

    Galu gale dziaukimes tuo, kad mokam mokescius, bet nesinaudojam paslaugomis - reiskia, esame sveiki.

  53.   VMI vagys rašo:

    Taip pavarei Šimašiau , taip ir toliau .! AŠ niekur dabar NEDIRBU , neturiu pinigų tai iš kur parausiu 72 litus. !!!Ėjau į polikliniką pažymos sveikatos paklojau 50 litų. ??!! Kitas klausiau : jis DIRBANTIS ??!! Vistiek mokėjo 50 litų ??!! Tai prieko tas 72 lt. PSD??!! Vistiek moka ir dirbantis. VMI tikri vagys . Šiap tai liktais Seimas išleido tokius įstatymus.

  54.   VMI vagys rašo:

    Kiek žinau jei dirbi tai automatiškai atskaičiuoja mokesčius ir tą PSD. Jei žmogus nevaikšto į sveikatos priežiūros įstaigas , tai galėtų nemokėti PSD. Kai pradės sirgti tada pradės mokėti PSD. ?! Tada visos paslaugos turi būti nemokamos, bet dabar moka PSD bet už dauguma paslaugų vistiek reikia mokėti .

  55.   VMI vagys rašo:

    Tūrėjau problemų su sveikata , tai ėjau privačiai. Mokėjau už konsultaciją , vaistus , bet gavau geresnę paslaugą .! Kodėl negalima taip , kad moki PSD o eini PRIVAČIAI gydytis ir apmoka valstybė ! Koks skirtumas eini privačiai ar į valstybinę gydymo įstaigą .Dabar nėra pasirinkimo. Vienas moka 72 lt, ir nesigydo tarkim sveikas. Kitas gydosi, ir per mėnesį jam apmoka draudimas po 1000 lt/ mėn. Kas sumoka 900 lt, , kiti už jį .Tai kur čia teisingumas >?!!!

  56.   Mindaugas Studentas ĮSTATYMAI rašo:

    Klausė vienas vyrukas šiame forume ar turėčiau mokėti už sveikatos paslaugas jeigu man lūžtų ranka: GIPSAS TVARSTIS IR T.T. Atsakymas yra toks: įstatymai preštarauja vieni kitiems…. pagal vieną: Lietuvos pilietis turintis darbą, ir mokantis mokesčius(juos atskaito darbdavys iš viso 24%) 9% keliauja PSD, tačiau pagal kitą įstatymą bedarbis negauna socialinio draudimo, bei už gydymą mokasi pats…. O pagal trečią įstatymą, bedarbis PSD įmokas turi susimokėti pats, nes sveikatos draudimas yra privalomas :D TAI ATSAKYMAS BŪTŲ PAPRASTAS - UŽ “PASLAUGĄ” MOKĖTI REIKIA, o JEI ESATE NEDIRBANTIS UŽ GYDYMĄ SUSIMOKATE PATS….. KLausimas už ką mokam 72 litus??? Nes mes laikomės įstatymų kurie kvailai prieštarauja patys sau……Štai ir turm įstatymų trikampį kuris labai smagiai primena anekdotą kai žydo klausia TSRS kagėbistai: iš kur gauni pinigus….. iš spintelės… o iš kur spintelėj, žmona padeda, o iš kur ji gauna??? aš jai duodu, o iš kur tu imi???? iš spintelės :DDDD

  57.   Mindaugas Studentas ĮSTATYMAI rašo:

    TIESA…… IŠEITIS MANO MANYMU BŪTŲ PAPRASTA, REIKĖTŲ ŽMONĖMS LEISTI RINKTIS MOKĖTI PSD AR NEMOKĖTI, IR JEI JO PSD PAVYZDŽIUI NEAPMOKĖTAS UŽ PASTARUOSIUS 4 AR 6 NESVARBU KIEK, MĖNESIUS, JIS UŽ SVEIKATOS PASLAUGAS GAUNA SĄSKAITĄ KURIĄ TURI PATS APMOKĖTI :) TADA VISI PAGALVOTŲ DUKART AR JIEMS REIKALINGAS DRAUDIMAS AR NEREIKALINGAS…. IR IŠ ESMĖS PASIKEISTŲ POŽIŪRIS Į DRAUDIMĄ…… O KAD NELIKTŲ ANT LEDO NETEKĘ DARBO, 3 MĖNESIUS JUOS DRAUSTŲ NEMOKAMAI VALSTYBĖ, KOL SUSIRASTŲ NAUJĄ DARBĄ…… BŪTŲ PERFECT……. :) KODĖL AŠ NEINU Į POLITIKĄ :D TIESA….. UŽSIENYJE ŽMONĖS TURI HEALTH INSURANCE….. LIETUVOJE PRIVAČIAI JIS KAINUOJA APIE 1800LT PER METUS…. KAI MINIMALŲ ATLYGINIMĄ GAUNANTIS LIETUVIS UŽ VALSTYBĮNĮ SUMOKA 864LT…. O DAUGIAU UŽDIRBANTIS PROPORCINGAI DAUGIAU……

  58.   Gediminas rašo:

    Ši sistema maudysis absurduose tol, kol nebus privatizuota. Trečio kelio nėra. Bet kada protas prablaivės įstatymdaviams ir žmonėms - nežinia.

  59.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Na, studentai mokosi paskutinę naktį (ką jau bekalbėti apie įstatymų nagrinėjimą…)
    Pagal vieną ir tą patį įstatymą, atvirkštine tvarka (skaitant nuosekliai taip išrašyta ir perskaitoma savaime) pačiam jau turėjo paaiškėti, kad sveikatos draudimas, visų pirma, yra privalomas _visiems_ (privalomuoju sveikatos draudimu draudžiami “Lietuvos Respublikos piliečiai ir užsieniečiai, nuolat gyvenantys Lietuvos Respublikoje”; …). Tai pirma ir svarbiausia.
    Toliau išvardinta kas draudžiamas valstybės lėšomis. Dar toliau (17 straipsnis) — kas ir kaip draudžiamas, jei dirba arba vykdo veiklą, kt. Ten pat (17.9) parašyta kas ir kaip draudžiamas, jei nepapuola į (jokią) valstybės draudžiamųjų ir kitų draudžiamųjų kategoriją, todėl privalo draustis pats. Ir visa tai viename įstatyme, kurį kažkodėl padauginai, kaip kokias “špargalkes”…(irgi studentiška)
    Iš tokio pusėtino ir neteisingo suvokimo darai išvadas ir tikiesi gauti gerą pažymį? Studentiška, tikrai studentiška… :-)
    Va kas tikrai nestudentiška, tai kad bene dauguma pasipiktinusių žino ir suvokia situaciją/problemą taip pat, kaip ir tu — “studentiškai”…
    Jei nesuvoki solidarumo esmės, tai galiu tik pailiustruoti hipotetiniu (labai ar gana tikėtinu) gyvenimo pavyzdžiu.
    Tarkime tavo draugė laukiasi (lankosi pas ginekologę, tiriama, greitai gimdys; duokdie be komplikacijų, cezario…), o tavo tėveliai pensijoje. Dažnai sirguliuoja tavo gimęs vaikelis, be to, kad valstybė pasirūpina jo globa/sveikata — skiepais, tyrimais, priežiūra — jau tik jam gimus iki pilnametystės. Sirguliuoja (ir vis dažniau, ūmiau; galbūt ir lėtinėmis, bjauresnėmis ligomis) ir tėveliai. Tu naiviai tikiesi, kad tavo sumokėtų 4-6 mėn. (o gal net ir dešimties metų) įmokų turėtų pakakti, kad gautum “paslaugą”, bet paskaičiavus tektų žagtelėti, nes paaiškėtų, kad už tave, tokiame kontekste, jau sumokėjo (galbūt net ir gausiai) kažkas kitas (kiti).
    Jei reikėtų už gydymą mokėti pinigus, tai vieną dieną (anksčiau ar vėliau) ateitų ta diena X, kai tau prieš nosį būtų galima užtrenkti duris, kad ir kaip graudžiai verktum (dėl savo vaikelio ar artimųjų) — neturi pinigų, nėra IR paslaugos (galbūt net reikalingos gyvybei). Nebekalbant apie vargingesnius piliečius. Nebekalbant apie (labiau) ligotus piliečius. Nebekalbant apie vienišus, neturinčius artimųjų.
    Todėl įsisąmonink, kad šis draudimas nėra paslaugos pirkimas (toks lengvabūdiškas, eilinis, paprastutis, kaip kokioje kirpykloje dredų pašukavimas), o solidarus mokestis, kurį privalai *nuolat* mokėti (priklausomai nuo aplinkybių ir pajamų), kad turėtum moralią ir pagrįstą teisę į medicinos paslaugas tada, kai tau (ar tavo artimiesiems, kurie draudžiami valstybės lėšomis) jų prireiks. Žinoma, gali palyginti valstybės sveikatos draudimą su privačiu sveikatos draudimu; neabejoju, kad sugebėsi jau nestudentiškai rasti aibę punktų/sąlygų dėl atsakomybės/išmokų apribojimo ir/ar atsisakymo, ligų išimtis, atsisakymą drausti, kai/jei sergi lėtinėmis ligomis, galimybės apskritai netekti jokio draudimo, jei paaiškės, kad kokią kepenų cirozę galbūt galėjo įtakoti ankstesnis studentiškas gyvenimo būdas, arba, galbūt susižalojai nepakankamai save saugodamas…
    Viskas atrodo paprasta, kai esi jaunas studentas…

  60.   Gi: rašo:

    Dar galeciau prideti, kad nelabai suvokiam, ka uz PSD mokesti galime gauti. Stai “VMI vagys” pavyzdys - uz sveikatos pazyma sumoketa 50 Lt. Bet uz sveikatos pazyma reikia moketi ir dirbanciam, ir sumokanciam daugiau nei 72 Lt/men.

    Tuo tarpu tikrai zinau, kad dirbantysis gali ir nemokamai pasikonsultuoti del ligos, ir jam atliekami kai kurie (bet ne visi) tyrimai (beje, ir dirbantis asmuo uz papildomus tyrimus, uz vaistus susimoka). Kadangi PSD istatyme (http://www3.lrs.lt/pls/inter3/dokpaieska.showdoc_l?p_id=356708) apdraustaisiais laikomi ir dirbantys, ir bedarbiai, susimokantys patys 72 Lt ar uz kuriuos sumoka valstybe (ir kruva kitu, pvz., pensininku), nematau kliuciu, kad tas pacias paslaugas gautu ir dirbantys, ir bedarbiai, ir PSD imokas susimokantys asmeniskai.

  61.   aidama rašo:

    Nieko nesusigaudau.visi vienas kitam priestarauja kaip ir patys istatymai.Esu visa laika drausta, o visur uz viska moku vistiek.Nesmone ir tikras pasityciojimas is zmoniu.

  62.   Dalia rašo:

    Gerb. Laimonai, viskas, ką jūs rašote studentui ir kituose komentaruose, lyg ir tiesa, bet ar jūs tikrai visiškai atmetate galimybę, kad žmogus, pvz.
    išlošęs loterijoje, gali sau leisti būti laisvas, su visomis iš to išplaukiančiomis pasekmemis. Ligonių kasos gali nuo to tik išlošti, nes atsitikus bėdai, tas žmogus sumokėtų daugiau, negu kelių metų PSD. Kodėl nepalikti jam tokios teisės? Kad jis neapgautų valstybės sumokedamas tik 2400? Padarykime ta sumą realesnę, bet leiskime žmogui pasirinkti. (Žinau, kad taip nebus, bet vis tiek…) Apskritai, mūsų
    valstybė per daug kišasi į žmogaus gyvenimą ne tik šioje srityje.

  63.   Renata rašo:

    Jei valstybe mano kad jos pilieciai privalo moketi tam tikrus mokescius, visu pirma ji turetu deramai informuoti savo piliecius apie tai, kad aiskiai siuo atveju nebuvo padaryta. Jei valzios vyrai ir moterys priima kazkokias istatymo pataisas - jos turetu isigalioti nuo ju priemimo datos, negali apsisukti ir sakyti kad va dabar turi susimoketi uz praejusius metus. Europoje niekas sitaip nesielgia ir jei LT nori buti Europos dalimi tai tureti laikytis ES istatymu.

    Matyt yra imamasi krastutiniu priemoniu, juk Lietuvele atsikrate jaunu, dirbti norinciu zmoniu, pasiliko su puokste pilieciu is kuriu daug nepaimsi, tai nusprende juos visai isgrezti. Bet jei zmogelis nieko neturi - kuo ji isgazdinsi??? Jei zmogelis kruopoms litu neturi is kur jis mokes 72 lt is ko???

    Valdzia musu is gero gyvenimo yra nuo realybes per daug atitolusi, jei nori stiprios valstybes tegu nustoja vargsus grezti, tegu ima savo infrastruktura statyti! Va nuo ko pradet reiktu, kurti darbo vietas, tuomet ir biudzetas gal imtu pilneti.

  64.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Na, Renata, VMI yra/buvo paruošusi aibę informacinių pranešimų, leidinių apie tai, kaip ir kam reikia tuos mokesčius mokėti. Ši prievolė egzistuoja jau seniai (ji aprašyta VMI leidiniuose; tarkime kad ir šiame, 2006′ųjų metų: h t t p : / / w w w . v m i . lt/lt/?itemId=10124106),
    todėl kaltinti nežinojimu DIDELE DALIMI reikėtų ir save…
    Tai ką VMI DORAI pradėjo vykdyti DORAI neįspėjusi, neinformavusi, tai būtent sveikatos draudimo įstatymą, t.y. PSD prievolės užtikrinimą (mokesčio nepriemokų išieškojimą), todėl man labai keista girdėti apie sapaliojimus dėl mokesčio ar įstatymo taikymo atgaline data.
    Jūs pasižiūrėkit į liberalą, bet visų pirma principingą *teisininką*, sveikatos apsaugos ministrą R. Šukį; jis, kad ir labai numanomai raukydamasis viduje, nes tokia mokestinė tvarka/sistema įtvirtinta įstatymų (prievolės, o dar ir šios, konkrečiai PSD, su liberalumu neitin dera, jei tik dera apskritai), aiškiai ir gana kategoriškai, vienareikšmiškai, principingai teigia, kad nekeičiant įstatymų jokių prievolių panaikinti ir pagrįstų skolų nubraukti nesigaus. Patikėkit, jei tik būtų menkutė teisinė galimybė, tai jau tikrai būtumėte išgirdusi atsakymą…
    Man tik keista, kodėl niekas neužsimena apie mokestinės senaties terminą (5 metai) ir kodėl VMI pagaliau pradėjus vykdyti SDĮ, nebuvo paskaičiuota ir ankstesnė nepriemoka, nes tokia, bent formaliai-teisiškai egzistuoja jau nuo, kaip girdime, 2003′iųjų, nors aš ir 1996′aisiais metais priimtame SDĮ matau aiškią prievolę draustis (mokėti draudimo įmokas), jei esi asmuo nepapuolantis į jokią kitą draudžiamųjų kategoriją, pvz.: bedarbis neužsiregistravęs darbo biržoje. Pavartykit, paskaitinėkit tą SDĮ; teisinis-valstybinis tragifarsas (nors man tokia sveikatos draudimo sistema, jos principai tikrai atrodo sąžiningi, priimtini) apie tai, kaip piliečiai žino įstatymus, jais vadovaujasi, suvokia savo prievoles (sąvivoka, santykis su valstybe, sąmoningumas, elementarus išprusimas, pilietiškumas) ir kaip patys įstatymai “įgyvendinami” (nebekalbant apie tai, kaip jie vykdomi) pačioje valstybėje, dėl ko visas puodas su koše užvirė tik po 14 metų… Žvelgiant pozityviai (nors tai yra labai sunku daryti) tai (neabejingumas, piktinimasis, reikalavimai, kad ir nepagrįstas/nepagrįsti) galėtų būti ir pilietinės brandos užuomazgos ženklai, nors veikaiu tai yra aiškus ženklas, kad tokių (vertybinių ir kokybinių) savybių (pilietiškumo, sąmoningumo) diegimu, ugdymu jau tikrai būtina susirūpinti…
    Taigi, apie ką aš čia. Apie ankstesnio laikotarpio (iki 2009′ųjų) PSD mokestines nepriemokas, skolas: nebent jos buvo kokiu nors aktu nurašytos ar traktuojama (kažin ar sąžiningai neužsimerkus ir teisiškai pagrįstai), kad įstatymas vykdomas nuo paskiausių pakeitimų 2009′aisiais, tačiau ankstesnė mokesčio nepriemoka, skola, mano supratimu, dėl to neturėjo dingti…
    Na, matyt niekas tiek liūtų tampyti už ūsų jau nebedrįso, tačiau tai vistiek grimasos, kurių teisinėje valstybėje neturėtų būti…

  65.   Gediminas rašo:

    Daug rašoma apie sąžiningumą, pilietiškumą, sąmoningumą, bet pamirštamas svarbiausias dalykas - TEISINGUMAS. O be jo įstatymai ir jų laikymasis pavirsta į tragikomišką farsą. Teisinėje valstybėje įstatymai turėtų atitikti teisingumo reikalavimus (jokiu būdu ne „socialinio teisingumo“). Lietuvoje teisingumo egzamino neišlaikytų nei Konstitucija, nei bet kuris įstatymas ar potvarkis.
    Prievarta išieškomi mokesčiai su teisingumu nedera iš principo. Ne tiek svarbu, kad žmonės nežino tikrųjų priežasčių. Tačiau jie jaučia intuityviai, ir tai kelia įtampą visuomenėje bei valstybinėse institucijose.
    Nei vyriausybė, nei Seimo nariai nedrįsta pažvelgti teisybei į akis. Juk įstatymas turi atitikti teisingumo reikalavimus, kaip krikščioniškas tikėjimas atitinka dešimt Dievo įsakymų. Tiesa, kairiųjų ir kai kurių dešiniųjų intelektualų pastangomis, teisingumo sąvoka yra apipinta sudėtingiausiu demagogijos rezginiu, bet žmonės dar turi tiek sveikos nuovokos, suprastų sąžiningas pastangas atkurti teisingumą.

  66.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Mano galva, Gediminai, sveikatos draudimas atitinka visus TEISINGUMO kriterijus, o tragikomiškas farsas yra tai, kai/kad patys piliečiai, nemokantys mokesčių ir reikalaujantys paslaugų, jų kokybės, to nesuvokia…
    Taip pat TIKRAI demagogiška yra postringauti apie mokesčių išieškojimą ir neteisingumą, kvestionuoti Konstitucijos teisingumą, kaip ir teisingumą matuoti bei lankstyti palei ideologinius bėgius…
    Ar jūs čia apie libertarų traukinį iš knygų…?

  67.   Giedrius rašo:

    Laimonai, tai tavo manymu yra teisinga atimti iš TAVĘS pinigų jėga, jei MAN atrodo, kad tau reikia X paslaugos, kurios kiekį, kokybę ir kainą nustatau aš?

  68.   Gediminas rašo:

    Laimonai,
    Sveikatos draudimas atitinka jūsų supratimą apie teisingumą (be to, labai ideologizuotą), o ne teisingumą iš principo. Libertarai ar liberalai čia niekuo dėti. Tiesa, kai kurie jų palaiko mano minėtą teisingumo sampratą.
    Jūs laikotės visiškai priešingos teisingumo sampratos, pagrįstos „socialinio teisingumo“ teorijomis. Tokiu atveju, apie teisingumą nėra ką ir kalbėti. Teisingumas ir „socialinis teisingumas“ tarpusavyje visiškai nedera.

  69.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Gediminai, kas tada yra TEISINGUMAS ir koks jis yra, jei jis nėra objektyvus (tada apie teisingumą nėra ką ir kalbėti…) ir/ar jau tikrai ne tas, kuris įtvirtintas TEISE…?

  70.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Giedriau, paskaitykit diskusijas. Aš kaip “kontrargumentą” norėčiau pateikti hipotetinę sąskaitą jūsų tėvams pensijoje ir/ar jums už jų ir jūsų vaikų (draudžiamų iš mūsų visų PSD mokesčio įmokų) gydymą. Dideles sąskaitas. Tada, jei jūs vis dar nenorite atsimerkti ir pamatyti, kad juos valstybė draudžia ir gydo iš šio mokesčio, o jūs tegalvojate, kad jums tereikia tik recepto nuo peršalimo už jums tinkančią kainą.

  71.   Gediminas rašo:

    Laimonai,
    Tur būt ir pats nepastebite, kad jūsų samprotavimuose yra įsivėlusi esminė grubi klaida - teisingumą kildinate iš teisės. Iš tikrųjų yra priešingai - tai teisė kyla iš teisingumo. Galima ir paprasčiau pasakyti - įstatymas turi ginti teisingumą. Kitoks kelias paprasčiausiai neįmanomas, sofistika teisingumui objektyvumo nepriduos. Iš kur teisė kiltų, jei senovės žmogus per tūkstantmečius nebūtų atradęs teisingumo principų? Juk tada ir visuomenė nebūtų galėjusi formuotis. Jūs ką, norite paneigti visą žmonijos istoriją!?
    Visos „socialinio teisingumo“ teorijos griūva kaip kortų nameliai, kai tik pajudinamos rimtesnių argumentų. Todėl turėtumėt pastebėti, kad jas propaguojantys vengia rimtų diskusijų, apsiribodami tik tuščia retorika. Dažniausiai tuo spekuliuoja politikai, siekdami savanaudiškų politinių tikslų.
    Ir jokių sąskaitų Giedriui ar man negalėtumėte pateikti, nes mes puikiausiai susitvarkytume ir be valstybės „malonės“. Žmonės kur kas geriau naudoja savo pinigus, nei paskutines kelnes varguoliams maunanti išpūsta biurokratinė sistema.

  72.   Giedrius rašo:

    Laimonai, tu teigi vienas kitam prieštaraujančius teiginius, taigi reiktų apsispręsti ar tavo manymu teisingumas yra:

    a) objektyvus t.y. visi žmonės turi tas pačias teises, t.y. niekas neturi teisės dėl jokių priežasčių pažeidinėti kitų žmonių teises - neteisingi veiksmai yra neteisingi nepriklausomai nuo to jie yra teisėti ar ne;
    b) teisingumas yra subjektyvus, t.y. tas pats, kas teisėtumas - visi veiksmai, kurie yra teisėti, yra teisingi.

    Jei pirmas variantas, tai niekas negali turėti teisės atimti iš tavęs pinigų jėga (pažeisti tavo teisę į nuosavybę) dėl jokių priežasčių, taip pat tu neturi teisės iš kitų žmonių reikalauti daugiau, nei tau priklauso pagal laisva valia sudarytas sutartis (pvz. pagal savanorišką sveikatos draudimą arba pagal faktinį apmokėjimą už tau reikalingas paslaugas).

    Jei antras variantas, tai tada de facto teisingumas neegzistuoja, tiesiog stipresni (valdžia su kariuomene ir policija užnugary) su silpnesniais (visais kitais žmonėmis) gali daryti ką nori, ką ir daro ir tokius veiksmus vadina teisingais (pvz. žydų genocidas buvo teisėtas, lygiai kaip ir privalomas sveikatos draudimas šiandien, todėl laikantis šios pozicijos turėtų jie abu turėtų būti laikomi teisingais).

  73.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Gerbiamieji, tas teisingumas, kuris įtvirtintas teisėje, įstatymuose yra ne tas teisingumas, nes jį kažkas įtvirtino ne taip, kaip reikia (norėtųsi), ne todėl, kad visuomenė to siekė ir tai remia? Apie ką mes čia? Ar tai ir nėra ta esminė jūsų logikos klaida?
    Giedriau, užsimink, prašau, sakiniu kokias teises turi žmonės? Kur tos teisės išrašytos ir kaip jos realizuojamos? Efemerinėms ir libertaristinėms filosofijoms apie prigimtines teises, apie teises, kurios visų kažkaip vienodai suvokiamos ir apie tai, kokios jos “objektyvios” čia gal ir nebeišsiplėsime…
    O dėl socialinio teisingumo griūties; kagi, JAV įtvirtino visiškai priešingą tvarką, pavyzdį, nes ten ta laisvė jau atsirūgo, tiesiogine to žodžio prasme. Vokietijos sveikatos apsaugos sistema laikytina viena pažangiausių ir efektyviausių (gal net, eretiškai, teisingiausių…?) pasaulyje (ten, žinia, prievolė draustis taip pat egzistuoja).

  74.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Gediminai, pakritikuok ir pakomentuok, prašau, kaip Lietuvoje (ir pasaulyje, mes niekuo neunikalūs) be “valdžios malonės” vidutines ar mažesnes pajamas gaunantis pilietis sugebėtų pasirūpinti 200 kLt kainuojančiu gydymu, jei jam bankai tiek neduoda paskolos trisdešimčiai metų, o po gydymo jis dar laimingai gyvens, tikėtina, kokius penkis metus…
    Aha, belieka tik pustuštė retorika ir filosofiniai-ideologiniai išvedžiojimai, kad “mes vistiek geriau mokame pasirūpinti savo pinigais”. Žinoma, kad mokate, bet ne tada, kai neišgalite…

  75.   Giedrius rašo:

    Teises žmonės turi tokias, dėl kokių susitaria (http://giedriusc.blogspot.com/2009/01/kokias-teises-turi-mons.html). Jei jau kalba eina apie žmonių teises, o ne apie žmonių grupių teises, tai teisės negali prieštarauti viena kitai, todėl situacija yra neįmanoma, kad tuo pačiu žmonės turėtų teises ir kad kažkokie žmonės galėtų jas teisėtai pažeidinėti. Jei jau vis tik taip yra (kaip kad šiandien visame pasaulyje), reiškia žmonės teisių neturi, tiesiog stipresni teisėtai daro su silpnesniais ką nori.

  76.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Giedriau, sveikas įžengęs į (šiuolaikinę…?) visuomenę/bendruomenę… :-) Čia (joje) sudūžta visos libertaristinės filosofijos, nes be laisvių ir sutartinių teisių, jose neišvengiamai egzistuoja pareigos, prievolės, daugumos (ar stipresniųjų, įtakingųjų) valia.

  77.   Gediminas rašo:

    Laimonai,
    Sakai, pasaulį seną išardysim ir naują pastatysim! Žinom šitas socialistų užmačias!
    Kaip ir visi užkietėję socialistai, argumentais savo nuomonei pagrįsti nesirūpini. Tiksliau pasakius, jų nėra. Belieka remtis ciniška daugumos „valia“ ar „teise“. Dar G. Vagnorius kadais būdamas pirmąkart premjeru mėgdavo sakyti, „tauta neklysta“ ir „dauguma teisi“. Ir dabar tebetiki šiomis nesąmonėmis.
    Kaip žmogus išliko iki šių dienų be „valdžios malonės“? Pagal Laimoną šiuolaikinė civilizacija turi būti dėkinga baudžiavinėms prievolėms!? Kur išmokai šitų absurdiškų teiginių, Laimonai? Negi paties mąstymas tik tiek tesiekia?

  78.   Giedrius rašo:

    Laimonai, kai kas nors ant pirštų parodo logikas žmogaus teiginiuose, žmogus turi 2 pasirinkimus: a) priimti realybę kokia ji yra; b) ir toliau laikytis savo iracionalaus įsitikinimo (toliau tvirtinti nesąmonę ar / ir pažerti žodžių kratinį be jokio turinio). Sutinku, kad sunku prisipažinti, jog advokatavai smurto naudojimą prieš smurto nenaudojančius žmones vardan kilnių tikslų ir to pats neva to nepastebėjai, tačiau tą daryti net ir po to kai tau tai ant pirštų parodoma yra aukščiausio laipsnio veidmainystė, o su sąmoningais veidmainiais dar ir palaikančiais smurtą prieš diskusijos oponentą diskusija beprasmė.

  79.   Giedrius rašo:

    Pirmame sakinyje turėjo būti “logikos klaidas”

  80.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Gediminai, lyg iki šiol žmonės buvo laisvi, laisvi, nemokėjo nei duoklių, nei mokesčių, rinkliavų, nebuvo nei vergovės, baudžiavos, nei feodalizmo…
    Labai absurdiška ir apgailėtina praraja jūsų laisvės ir istorinės politinių-teisinių-ekonominių santvarkų raidos suvokime…
    Nesvarbu kuo aš tikiu, bet tai (DABAR ir nuo seno, nes formavosi ir formuojasi) veikia viso pasaulio santvarkose, TEISĖJE (tuo yra grindžiami santykiai ir teisėtumas; tiek forma, tiek turiniu), o jūs tik sapaliojate apie romantinius, utopinius (kai kurie jų ir man mieli) dalykus lyg paneigdamas, ignoruodamas realybę. Bet juk tai — GRYNIAUSIA UTOPIJA…

  81.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Giedriau, priimk realybę tokią, kokia ji yra; tavo filosofija, kad ir kokia ji logiška, pagrįsta, miela atrodytų, neveikia nė vienoje valstybėje, nėra bene jokių realių jos pavyzdžių… :-)
    Beje, pats dar nepateikei jokio rišlaus turinio, tik teiginių kratinį kažkodėl postuluodamas tai TIESA…

  82.   Gediminas rašo:

    Ką gi, aišku. Laimonas tokioms diskusijoms visiškai nepasiruošęs. Jam dar reiktų gerokai ir ilgokai pasimokyti. Ir logikos pagrindų, ir teisės bent pradžiamokslį. Tada nereikės šokinėti oponentams į akis, bandant ginti akivaizdžias nesąmones.

  83.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Teisinė sistema ir Konstitucija yra akivaizdi nesąmonė…
    Ką gi, iki tiek tikrai nepašoksiu… :-)

  84.   Gediminas rašo:

    Laimonai, jei būtum kiek išmintingesnis, užuot vėjavaikiškai ironizavęs, rimčiau pasidomėtum diskutuojamomis temomis. Mes su Giedrium turėtume apie ką diskutuoti, o pats akivaizdžiai iškrenti iš „konteksto“, nes blauzdos rimtoms diskusijoms per skystos.
    Pirmiausia žmonija atrado teisingumą, teisė pradėjo formuotis gerokai vėliau - gal kokius 4-5 tūkstantmečius prieš Kristaus gimimą, o jau konstitucijos visai „jaunos“ 2-3 šimtmečiai. Todėl aiškinimai, kad teisingumas ir teisė kyla iš konstitucijos yra visiška nesąmonė. Todėl ir tvirtinu, kad Lietuvos konstitucija yra neišbaigtas, pilnas prieštaravimų ir nenuoseklumų skubotas mūsų nepatyrusių teisininkų kūrinys, kuris turi būti nuolat ir nuosekliai tobulinamas. Bent jau tol, kol atitiks pagrindinius teisingumo reikalavimus. Tada bus galima teigti, kad Lietuvoje įstatymai gina teisingumą, laisvę, nuosavybę ir gyvybę.

  85.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Nežinojau, kad Gediminas toks plataus ir profesionalaus profilio antropologas, kuris gali manyti ir teigti apie tokius objektyvius ir gana apibrėžtus dalykus vykusius prieš 5 tūkst. metų, kai net Romėnų, Graikų laikų filosofijos veikalai (jų likučiai) kontraversiškai analizuojami/traktuojami tūkstančių, o panašaus amžiaus civilizacijų kultūros likučiai rankiojamai po gabalėlį…
    Nebeironizuosiu, bet apibrėžk kokį teisingumą žmonės atrado prieš 4-5 tūkstančius metų. Bent sakiniu. Ir tai bus tikrai visiška nesąmonė. Net bandymas tai daryti (kokiu pagrindu — postulatų? moksliniu, bent filosofiniu, istoriniu?) yra nesąmonė. Tai yra SAPALIOJIMAS.

  86.   Gediminas rašo:

    Teisingumas - tai prievartos nebuvimas. Teisingumo samprata vystėsi ir tebesivysto nuo civilizacijos atsiradimo iki šių dienų. Tai nėra vienąkart atrastas kažkoks nekintantis supratimas ar dėsnis, o labai sudėtingas interaktyvus procesas. Paprotinė, gentinė, karališkoji teisė pradėjo rastis jau civilizacijai gerokai pažengus į priekį. Dar vėliau - baudžiamoji, civilinė ir galop konstitucinė. Pagrindinė ir neišvengiama sąlyga bet kokiai teisei rastis - teisingumo samprata, logiškai suformuluota ir pakankamai plačiai pripažįstama visuomenėje. Visai nebūtina žinoti konkrečių senovės žmonių teisingumo sampratos formuluočių, nes visa ši patirtis perduodama iš kartos į kartą jau ne vieną šimtą tūkstančių metų, be paliovos keisdamasi atrandant vis kitas taisykles ir dėsningumus, mums svarbesnė jos esmė.
    Lietuvos respublikos Konstitucija teisingumo egzamino neišlaikytų, kaip jau rašiau. Joje įteisinta prievarta prieš asmenį, nuosavybės nusavinimas, laisvo žodžio ir asmens laisvės apribojimai, įvairiausių rūšių apmokestinimai ir t.t. Ji neteisinga net dešimties Dievo įsakymų atžvilgiu, jau nekalbant apie bendražmogiškąjį teisingumą. Konstitucija negali būti kuriama ideologiniu pagrindu ir kaitaliojama pagal vadovaujančios interesų grupės užgaidas, o mūsų Konstitucija prifarširuota tokiu kiekiu ideologinio balasto, kad ja visiškai neįmanoma remtis ginant savo elementariausias teises. Tuo jau nekart įsitikino valdininkų prievartą patyrę Lietuvos piliečiai. Užtenka paklausyti su kokia arogancija Konstitucinio teismo teisėjai ir pirmininkai postringauja apie Konstitucijos neklystamumą bei neliečiamybę, kad suprastum kokioje beteisiškumo atmosferoje tenka gyventi paprastiems piliečiams. PSD ir panašios abrakadabros gimsta vos ne kasdien. Ar bereikia stebėtis teisiniu nihilizmu, klestinčiu įvairiuose visuomenės sluoksniuose? Jei įstatymas negina teisingumo, negina žmogaus nuo prievartos, ji bando gintis pats. Štai ir atsiranda palanki terpė rastis kedžiams ir į jį panašiems. Ir tai tik pradžia.
    Kol Lietuvoje nebus suprasta, kad teisingumas gali būti kuriamas tik šalinant neteisingumą, tol ir viešpataus neteisybė, tegul ir apvilkta gražiausiais „teisiniais“ rūbais su ES „teisės“ pakabučiais.

  87.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Beveik neturiu esminių pastabų, Gediminai, nebent vieną teiginį, apibendrinimą jūsų logikos pradžiamokslio patikrinimui — teigiu (postuluoju), kad teisingumas (jei jau jo įsisąmoninimas formavosi ir formuojasi) yra realizuotas teisėje kaip doktrinoje maksimaliai galimai, t.y. TEISĖJE ir teisinėse sistemose turime teisingumą, kokį tik galime turėti šiuo metu. Maksimaliai objektyviai.
    Jūsų teorija dūžta į šipulius logikos pančiuose jau tuo atžvilgiu, kad prievarta ir smurtas ir prieš dešimt tūkstančių metų (kai žmonės, pasak jūsų, “atrado teisingumą”) buvo suvokiami kur kas natūraliau, nei šiandien…

  88.   Gediminas rašo:

    Ir vėl esminės loginės klaidos. Negalima sakyti, kad teisingumas jau realizuotas teisėje, nes jis turi būti ginamas ir įgyvendinamas visuomenėje. Ką reiškia pasakymas „maksimaliai galimai“ ar „Maksimaliai objektyviai“? Mums reikia teisingumo visuomenėje, o ne tik teisinėse sistemose.
    Labai klysti manydamas, kad senovės žmonės negalėjo atrasti teisingumo pradmenų dėl menko intelektinio išsivystymo. O teisingumo samprata atsirado tik dabar. Be teisingumo principų pripažinimo negali atsirasti jokia bendruomenė ar visuomenė, tegul ir pačių primityviausių. O jau teisės teoretikų ir teisininkų uždavinys yra toliau vystyti teorinę ir praktinę teisę.
    Deja, taip ir neišgirdau jokio dužimo garso, nors ir labai atidžiai klausiausi. Be to, aš jokių teorijų nekuriu ir čia nepublikuoju. Tai tik pastabos ekspromtu, be abejo, remiantis išnagrinėtomis įvairiomis teorijomis.

  89.   Laimonas Vėbra rašo:

    Tai jis ir ginamas. Ir realizuojamas. Teisė ir teisinės sistemos tam ir tarnauja.
    Pasakymas „maksimaliai galimai“ reiškia realybę, o ne utopinį modelį ar siekiamybę. Kaip tamstos protas yra maksimaliai išsivystęs šiuo/šio amžiaus metu (turint omenyje išsilavinimą ir mokslą; civilizacijos, kultūros lygį), taip ir teisingumas yra maksimaliai realizuotas TEISĖJE, nes tai (nuolat) daroma jau tuos „4-5 tūkstančius metų“.
    Senovėje…
    O kaipgi, galėjo ir atrado: vergovė, smurtas, prievolės kodeksuose ir sampratoje buvo visiškai natūralūs dalykai…
    Teisybė, negalint apibrėžti kas yra teisingumas, kas jį sudaro, kaip jis veikia ir realizuojamas, tai jokia ne teorija, tai tik SAPALIOJIMAS dargi kaltinant kitus logikos nepritekliumi…

  90.   irena (pensininke) rašo:

    Simtu procentu sutinku su ponu Simasiumi. Toks poziuris i zmogu ir jo sveikata paprasciausiai nesveikas. Moketi visvien uz daugeli paslaugu reikia (neskaitant to ka duoda pacientas tiesiai i kisene jei labai rimtai sunegalavo - tai netgi ne paslaptis; tai savotiskas apsidraudimas) Kazkaip neseniai kalbejausi su draugu is Izraelio apie tai. Taip, jie taip pat moka, netgi pensininkai, tam tikra procenta, bet jie uz sveikatos paslaugas veliau visiskai nieko nemoka. O kaip tiems, kurie gauna pensija ir dar 2* didesne alga uz pensija ir sumoka, palyginus, nemaza suma per metus, jie vis vien nera pilnai apdrausti ir t.t. ivairiausi atvejai…

  91.   Irena rašo:

    Manau, kad problema yra ta, kad mes prauginome daug išlaikytinių. Suprantu, dabar daug įmonių nedirba, darbą sunku susirasti, bet juk buvo laikai, kai verslininkai į darbą priimdavo visus, o kiek žmonių nedirbo. Kiek sakė, kad jo gaunama pašalpa didesnė už minimalų atlyginimą ir jam dirbti neapsimoka? Kita problema, kad sveikatos apsauga yra išsigimusi ir po reformos dar labiau išsigims. Didžiuliai vyr. gydytojų atlyginimai, tiesioginis kyšio (netgi ne kyšio, o gydytojo darbo apmikėjimo) reikalavimas. Tik nesakykit, kad nuo paciento priklauso mokėti ar nemokėti. Jeigu pats gydytojas pasako, kad operacija ar kokia procedūra kainuoja kažkokią sumą ar gali nemokėti? Kartą bandėme, po to visam gyvenimui įsitikinau, kad reikia mokėti, jeigu liepia. Aišku, būtų visai neblogai, kad žmogus be PSD dar galėtų draustis savanoriškai, o susirgęs iš to susimokėtų “papildomą atlyginamą” gydytojams. Viskas būtų oficialiai, o dalis pinigų grįžtų valstybei kaip PSD ir GPM. O PSD labiausiai nenori mokėti nuolatiniai gyventojai iš pašalpų bei jauni ir sveiki žmonės. Ne veltui yra patarlė, kad dviejų dalykų nemokame vertinti kol jų netenkame, tai - jaunystė ir sveikata.

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