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Nėra žmogaus teisės į Nukryžiuotojo nukabinimą

Džiugu, kad Lietuvoje jau prasidėjo rimtesnė diskusija dėl Europos Žmogaus Teisių Teismo sprendimo, kuriuo teigiama, kad Nukryžiuotasis valstybinėje mokykloje tariamai pažeidžia žmogaus teises.

Kaip teisingumo ministras jau esu pradėjęs rinkti medžiagą Vyriausybės sprendimui, pagal kurį Lietuva galėtų įstoti į minimos bylos nagrinėjimą Teismo didžiojoje kolegijoje palaikant Italiją, jei toks nagrinėjimas įvyks.

Kokie argumentai skatina mane laikytis šios pozicijos?

Pirma, Žmogaus teisių ir pagrindinių laisvių apsaugos konvencija kalba apie sąžinės ir tikėjimo laisvę. Nukryžiuotasis, kad ir kurioje viešoje vietoje kabėtų, šios laisvės nepaneigia. Lygiai taip pat kaip ir kiti krikščioniški ar kitų religijų simboliai.

Valstybės ir bažnyčios atskyrimas yra visai atskira tema. Žmogaus teisių ir pagrindinių laisvių apsaugos konvencija tiesiogiai nekalba apie bažnyčios ir valstybės atskyrimą.

Antra, vieta - labai svarbus, bet labai miglotas kriterijus. Nors Teismas to tiesiogiai ir neįvardino, iš esmės sprendimą nulėmė tai, kad valstybinė mokykla - vieša vieta. Tačiau jei Nukryžiuotojo negali būti valstybinėje mokykloje, tai ar jis gali būti valstybės dalinai finansuojamoje mokykloje? O kaip kitose valstybės ar viešosiose įstaigose? O miestelio aikštėje ar tiesiog pakelėje?

Kyla grėsmė, kad po šio sprendimo, jei jis liks galioti, Europos Žmogaus Teisių Teismas įgis pateisinimą plėtoti savo poziciją apie religinių ir kitų svarbių vertybių  simbolių demonstravimą. Kuo gali baigtis ši plėtotė - niekas šiandien nepajėgus pasakyti.

Kai kurie dalykai turėtų būti lyg ir savaime suprantami. Tai pagarba šaliai, į kurią atvykai, jos istorijai, tradicijoms bei kultūrai.

Gaila, kad ne visada šios tiesos tampa kūnu. Juo labiau nedovanotina, kai elementarios pagarbos pametimas „įteisinamas” ir pridengiamas žmogaus teisių vardu.

P.S. Atsižvelgdamas į kai kurių komentatorių pastebėjimus noriu patikinti, kad nemanau (ir nei puse žodžio apie tai nesu kada nors sakęs), kad Nukryžiuotieji mokyklose turi kabėti privalomai.

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komentarai (500) | “Nėra žmogaus teisės į Nukryžiuotojo nukabinimą”

  1.   groo rašo:

    „Nukryžiuotasis, kad ir kurioje viešoje vietoje kabėtų, šios laisvės nepaneigia. Lygiai taip pat kaip ir kiti krikščioniški ar kitų religijų simboliai.“
    Vienas klausimas - Katedros aikštė ir Gedimino prospektas - viešos vietos? Jei taip, ar palaikytumėte hipotetinę iniciatyvą ten iškabinti musulmoniškus simbolius? Satanistiškus? Ar analogiškus simbolius galima kabinti mokyklose? Jei ne, kodėl?

    Tai, kad sunku apibrėžti ribą (valstybinė-pusiau valstybinė mokykla-whatever) man neatrodo kaip rimtas argumentas, lygiai taip pat sunku brėžti ribą, kur galima rūkyti, kur galima vartoti alkoholinius gėrimus, etc.

    Kitas klausimas, kodėl s e k u l i a r i valstybė lenda su krikščioniška pozicija į kitos valstybės reikalus - negana to, ne šiaip sau, o po kitos valstybės (!) - Vatikano - paraginimo? Kodėl Seimas nepuolė ginti musulmonų, kai buvo uždrausta statyti jų maldos namus Šveicarijoje?

    Kitas dalykas, kad paskutiniu metu pernelyg dažnai s e k u l i a r i o s Lietuvos valdžia sprendimus derina su konkrečios religijos (RKB) atstovais. Nesenas topas iš tos pačios srities: „Kaip BNS antradienį sakė URK pirmininkas konservatorius Audronius Ažubalis, Vatikanas Užsienio reikalų ministerijai atsiuntė prašymą, kad šis klausimas parlamentiniu lygiu būtų išnagrinėtas ir Lietuvoje. A.Ažubalis abejojo, ar šį klausimą pavyks sklandžiai išspręsti, nes, jo teigimu, „komitete yra ir ateistiškai nusiteikusių asmenų“.“
    Kitaip tariant - valdžios atstovas pareiškia, kad „sklandžiai“ klausimas būtų sprendžiamas tik tuo atveju, jei visi komiteto atstovai būtų šališki (katalikai). Ar tik aš tame matau problemą?

  2.   Ysidor GB rašo:

    Prisidedu prie groo.
    Religiniams simboliams ne vieta mokyklose, nesvarbu kokios religijos jie bebutu. Religiniu simboliu vieta yra maldos namai. Man nepatiktu, kad mano vaikai eitu i mokykla, kurioje kiekvienoje klaseje kabotu bet kurios religijos simboliai.

  3.   Tadas rašo:

    Tema isties idomi ir slidi. Nesupratau sito sakinio:

    “Tai pagarba šaliai, į kurią atvykai, jos istorijai, tradicijoms bei kultūrai.”

    Prie ko cia “atvykimas”? Kaip netikintis ar kitos nei kryziu garbinancios religijos atstovas laisvoj pliuralistinej visuomenej ar saly nesu “atvykelis” ir turiu teise reikalaut, kad is mano kaip mokesciu moketojo pinigu islaikoma institucija neiiskirtu nei vienos religijos ar ideologijos - ir juo labiau man jos nepirstu. Man lygiai taip pat nepatiktu, jei visose klasese kabetu kokios partijos vadovo paveikslas. Ir man tai nepatiktu ne todel, kad turiu kazka pries pries kryziu ar x partijos pirmininka ar jos ideologija.

  4.   bang rašo:

    Manau komentatoriai turputį painiojatės dėl reikalo esmės, kuri ne konkrečioje religijoje ar jos simboliuose, o žmogaus pasirinkimo teisėje.
    Į goo klausimą dėl simbolių kabinimo - truputį neaišku, ką turite omeny. Nejau nesate matęs mečetės ? Įregistruokite savo religinę bendruomenę, statykite maldos namus, kabinkite ant jų savo simbolius. Jei jūsų tikėjimo vaikų mokykloje bus bent tiek, kiek katalikų, neabejoju, kad galėsite simbolį pasikabinti ir ant klasės sienos. Asmeniškai aš tam neprieštaraučiau, netgi jei jūsų vaikas būtų vienintelis tos eligijos išpažintojas klasėje.
    Dėl kišimosi į kitos valstybės reikalus po paraginimo. O jūs norite, kad kištumėmės neraginti ? :) Ne tik Vatikanas, bet ir pati Italija paprašė. Beje, teismo sprendimu sukurtas precedentas išeina už vienos valstybės reikalų, beje pats faktas, kad sprendimas priimtas ner Italijos teismo, paneigia, kad reikalas yra valstybės vidaus. Jeigu musulmoniška valstybė paprašytų ginti musulmonus Šveicarijoje, vienaip ar kitaip turėtų būti sprendžiamas ir šis klausimas. Ką turėjo omeny Ažubalis sakydamas “sklandžiai”, ko gero reiktų klausti jo. Kita vertus, bet kokiu atveju tai tik būtų jo asmeninė nuomonė, gi žinome, kad komitete yra ir kitokių.
    Kas dėl pretenzijų ermiantis mokesčių mokėjimu. Lietuvoje (jau nekalbu apie Italiją) pie 80 proc. piliečių save laiko katalikais. Turbūt nekyla abejonių, kad jie taip pat moka mokesčius, o atsižvelgiant į jų skaičių, turi finansiškai pagrįstą teisę spręsti ką mokykloje pasikabinti ant sienos :)
    Tadui nepatiktų bet kas - ar kabėtų partijos vadovo paveikslas, ar kryžius, nepriklausomai nuo partijos ideologijos, nors neturi nieko prieš kryžių :) Ka gi, jam taip pat gali nepatikti ir sienų spalva, užuolaidos ar gėlės ant palangės. Gal jam patiktų pasikabinti Č. Darvino paveikslą ? Nemanau, kad tai jam būtų uždrausta, o vat kryžiaus kažkodėl negalima.

  5.   Kotryna rašo:

    Be galo džiaugčiausi, jei Lietuva vis tik įstotų į bylą Italijos pusėje. Nors ir neturime valstybinės religijos kaipo tokios įteisintos, tačiau atsižvelgiant į tikinčiųjų skaičių neatmesčiau tokios galimybės kaip papročių ir vertybių puoselėjimo, nes kuo toliau, tuo labiau apleidžiamas tikėjimas. Lyg būtume atbukę amerikiečiai vis aiškinam, apie savo teises ir laisves, tačiau visi akcentuojam savąsias teises, o ne aplinkinių. Aš turiu teisę nematyti kryžiaus ant sienos, tačiau likusieji turi teisę jį matyti ir būti auklėjami ir mokomi tokioje įstaigoje, kur yra puoselėjamas ir diegiamas tikėjimas. Jei jau turi laisvę pasirinkti mokyklą, tai pasirink tą, kur nukryžiuotojo ant sienos nėra, o aiškinti, kad nei vienoje mokykloje, nei vienoje klasėje negali kaboti kryžius ar šventojo paveikslas, ar dar koks tikėjimo simbolis, čia jau tikrai per stipriai…
    Jei į bylą įstotų dar ir tokia katalikiška šalis kaip Lenkija, tai oooj oj oj greitai baigsis tokie ateizmą skatinantys kreipimaisi į EŽTT:)
    Telaimina Mus Dievas ;)

  6.   Renaldas rašo:

    Remigijui gali pasirodyti idomi Europos Parlamento ALDE frakcijoje diskutuota rezoliucija siuo klausimu. Ypac atkreipciau demesi i tinkama 4 paragrafo formuluote:

    ” 1. States its attachment to the principle of separation of church and state, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, the right to education and the prohibition of discrimination as core values of the EU;

    2. Recalls that fundamental rights and freedoms are individual and inalienable rights of each individual EU citizen;

    3. Considers that Member States have an active duty to ensure freedom of religion and freedom of conscience for all citizens, and to ensure that state and public institutions at all levels of government, represent all citizens, regardless of belief, religion or philosophy, and without discrimination; points out that a high level of protection of rights and freedoms will reduce the need for judicial intervention; believes that Member States must ensure and protect freedom of religion and freedom of conscience of minorities, whether or not they are organised, also by encouraging consensual solutions to be found in mutual respect by citizens within their communities;

    4. Believes that freedom of religion includes the use, wearing or display of religious symbols, but that compulsory display of religious symbols in premises used by public authorities, for example public schools or court rooms, favouring one religion or life stance over another or banning symbols of any particular religion or life stance in a discriminatory way, unnecessarily limits the freedom of religion and freedom of conscience;

    5. Recalls that Member States, on the basis of the principle of subsidiarity, shall respect and apply human rights and fundamental freedoms as enshrined in the ECHR and in the Charter of Fundamental Rights already at national level,”

  7.   bang rašo:

    Kotryna, Lenkijos Seimas dar praėjusių metų gruodžio pradžioje išreiškė paramaą Italijai. Taip pat Italiją remia ir Slovakija. Manau bus ir daugiau.

  8.   egriseus rašo:

    Nesuvokiantiems, kas yra kryžius, kaip šalies kultūra ir tradicija, nueikite į kapus, - senus, sovietmečio, nūdienos. Ten, tarp tų medinių, akmeninių, geležinių, naujų ir nuo laiko aptrupėjusių kryžių, neblogai mąstosi apie idiotizmą.

  9.   aš rašo:

    šiuo atveju ežtt sprendimo idiotiškumas matosi gryna akimi, bet vis dėlto manau, kad pati problema yra ne tokia paprasta. nes akivaizdu, kad viešojoje mokykloje susiduria bent dviejų (o dažnai ir daugiau) žmonių grupių interesai: krikščionių ir ateistų. ateistai norėtų, kad jokių kryžių ten nebūtų. krikščionys norėtų, kad jie būtų visose klasėse.

    tik bambukas gali aiškint, kad kryžių nukabinimas yra “neutralus” - jis tiesiog yra ateistų interesų patenkinimas, nes krikščionis visada norės, kad kiekviena patalpa būtų įprasminta Dievo aukos dėl žmogaus simboliu. kita vertus, jei kryžiai bus, tuomet bus pažeidžiami ateistų interesai to kryžiaus, kuris jiems nieko nereiškia, nematyti.

    kokie sprendimo būdai visus piliečius lygiai traktuoti norinčiai valstybei? ilguoju laikotarpiu, manau, išvesti valstybę iš mokyklų: sudaryti sąlygas mokyklas steigti privatiems asmenims, draugijoms, bažnyčioms, o jos jau tvarkytųsi savo viduje pagal savo pasaulėžiūrą.

    o trumpuoju laikotarpiu, kol valstybinės mokyklos vis dar yra - ir sudaro milžinišką visų mokyklų daugumą - kiekvienu atveju turėtų spręsti vietos bendruomenės dauguma. moksleiviai ar jaunesniųjų moksleivių tėvai turėtų balsuoti, nori jie savo mokykloj kryžių ar ne. kitaip šios problemos neišspręsi. nes “neutralių” sprendimų čia nėra, ir absurdiška įsivaizduoti, kad ateistiškas sprendimas yra neutralesnis nei krikščioniškas - jie abu yra ideologiškai angažuoti atsakymai į tą patį klausimą.

  10.   aš rašo:

    o dėl alde:
    daugumą ten sudaro partijos ir žmonės, kurie su liberalizmu bendra turi nedaug, greičiau ten socialistai, tik mažiau radikalūs nei pse, ar kaip dabar jie save vadina. libertarų ar dešiniųjų liberalų ten nėra beveik išvis - tiek dėl prastos liberalizmo padėties europoje, tiek todėl, kad jie mieliau renkasi epp ar radikalias dešiniąsias europines partijas.

    šiame kontekste liberalų sąjūdžio pasirinkimas jungtis į alde veiklą buvo keistokas, nors su epp irgi tikrai ne visada pakeliui, juolab su radikalais. tokia liūdna laisvės partijų europoje padėtis…

  11.   Mantoske rašo:

    Aš’ui :

    1. Komentare, kaip ir dažna katalikams kalbant apie sekuliarius žmones, yra įžeidinėjimų. Čia šiaip retorinis pastebėjimas.
    2. Simbolių nukabinimas nėra sekuliarių žmonių įgeidžių tenkinimas. Tai yra lygiavos, apie kurią kalbama konstitucijoje, įteisinimas. Sekuliarių žmonių įgeidžių tenkinimas būtų plakatų su užrašais “Dievo nėra” (ar panašiai, mintį supratote) kabinimas. Tačiau apie tai net minties nekyla, ar ne?

    Kabinkite prašom kryžius. Bet pakabinkite ir šalia ir Evoliuciją iliustruojantį paveikslą, žydų, musulmonų simboliką (juk mažumų teisės irgi turi būti gerbiamos). O aš už tai, kad geriau nekabinti tada nieko.

    O šiaip, gerai gyvenam, kad užsiimam tokiais niekais :D.

  12.   bang rašo:

    Simbolių nukabinimas yra lygiavos, apie kurią kalbama konstitucijoje, įteisinimas. Gal galite detalizuoti apie Konstutucijoje numatytą lygiavą straipsniais ?

  13.   Mantoske rašo:

    Ne iki galo suprantate minti.

    1. 43 straipsnis. … Lietuvoje nėra valstybinės religijos. Kyla klausimas, kodėl valstybinėse mokyklose įmanomas tik katalikiškos simbolikos kabinimas?
    2.Tas pats 43 ir 26 kalba apie lygumą tarp įsitikinimų ir sąžinės laisvę. Kyla tas pats klausimas kaip ir 1 p.
    3. Pačio nukabinimo, žinoma, nerasime. Tačiau turi būti sudarytos lygios sąlygos visiems požiūriams ir nuomonėms. Savo ruožtu, akivaizdu, kad tai yra nepraktiška. Todėl išeitis tik viena - kaip ir nusprendė tas teismas.

  14.   bang rašo:

    1. Kuom remdamasis jūs teigiate, kad įmanomas tik katalikiškos ? Kur matote draudimą pasikabinti Č.Darvino portretą (beje ir jis nebuvo ateistas) ar pastatyti menorą ?
    2. Kaip riboja pakabintas kryžius jūsų įsitikinimus ir graužia sąžinę, turint omeny 1 p.
    3. Tai visgi pripažįstat, kad draudimo kabinti nėra. Tai geriau neriboti galimybes pasikabinti niekam, o ne priversti nukabinti kataliką ? Teismas tikrai nesirėmė praktiškumu, apsispręskite, kuo vadovaujatės - praktiškumu ar teise.

  15.   Mantoske rašo:

    1. Aš taip galvoju. Tiesiog nelabai įsivaizduoju, kad mokykloje tėvų komitetui nusprendus pakabinti transparantą su užrašu “Dievo nėra” lengvai praeitų. Aš galvoju, kad nepraeitų.

    2. Neriboja. Sąžinė gali kartais panerimaut tik dėl to,kad ji žino apie nelygias teises.

    3. Aišku, kad nėra draudimo kabinti vienus ar kitus simbolius. Bet žiūrim kas iš to gautųsi. Pusė klasės norės kryžiaus. Ketvirtadalis “Dievo nėra”. Du “Nevalgyk to kas juda sava eiga -sugadinsi karmą”. Vienas norės ikonos. Mahometo. Žodžiu - absurdas. Ar tokios mintys buvo ir teisėjų galvose - nežinau. Išvadų neskaičiau.

  16.   ilgius rašo:

    Nukryžiuotieji :) Manau kova su krucifiksais - ne ŽT reikalas. Kultūriniai, jei ne civilizaciniai, frontai čia. Imho demokratinės valstybės viešos vietos turėtų būti pabrėžtinai neutralios visoms konfesijoms be išimtiems. Tik va kur riba konfesinio ir šiaip kultūrinio? Manding Kalėdose religinio elemento liko visiškas mizeris, kryžiaus simbolis irgi ne visada sietinas su tikėjimu.

  17.   bang rašo:

    3. Na čia panašiai, kaip iš vaikų nepasidalinančių žaislo, atimti jį visai :)

  18.   Aidas Kasparas rašo:

    Gerbiamas Ministre ir pasipiktinę komentatoriai, ar jūs skaitėte EŽTT nutarimą, kuriuo esate taip nepatenkinti? Aš, su savo kukliomis prancūzų kalbos žiniomis, perskaičiau ( http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/viewhbkm.asp?sessionId=42768296&skin=hudoc-en&action=html&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649&key=77718&highlight=Italy%20|%20Lautsi%20|%2030814/06 ). Ir radau, kad problema ne tame, kad ponia Lautsi nesugebėjo susitarti su mokyklos bendruomene, kabinti ar nekabinti nukryžiuotąjį klasėje. O tame, kad Italijoje vis dar galioja 1924-04-30 Karališkas Dekretas, reikalaujantis be išimčių kiekvienoje klasėje turėti pakabintą nukryžiuotąjį ir karaliaus portretą (žr. 20 nutarimo paragrafą). EŽTT nusprendė, kad ši prievarta iš Italijos valstybės pusės pažeidžia mokinių ir jų tėvų teises (žr. par 57).

    Nesu kompetetingas diskutuoti apie žmogaus teisių niuansus. Tačiau, jei Italijoje netgi musulmonams įsteigtoje mokykloje nukryžiuotasis privalėtų būti pakabintas kiekvienoje klasėje, tai šitai prasilenktų su sveiku protu. Nesiruošiu italams nurodinėti, kaip jie turi tvarkytis savo šalyje. Tačiau darysiu viską, kas mano galioje, kad Tėvynėje analogiškas režimas nebūtų įvestas.

    Man, žmogui netikinčiam, nepatiko sprendimas ginti „skriaudžiamus tikėjimo brolius“. Bet, pas mus demokratija, o valstybėje pirmu smuiku groja krikdemai. Tai c’est la vie. Tačiau aš įtariu, kad beveik visi gynėjai nebuvo perskaitę, ką jie iš tiesų gina, bet vis tiek priėmė nutarimą įtraukti Lietuvą į tarptautinį teismo procesą. Ir šitas aklas sprendimo priėmimas man nepatinka gerokai labiau. Gal būt netgi turėtų kelti rūpestį teisingumo ministrui.

    P.S. Beje, EŽTT nutarimo priėmime dalyvavo ir teisėja iš Lietuvos Danutė Jočienė. Tai gal netgi lengviau buvo galima išsiaiškinti visas to sprendimo priėmimo aplinkybes.

  19.   Donatas G. rašo:

    Išties juk nėra angliško aptariamojo EŽTT sprendimo teksto. Tėra tik anglų kalba parašytas EŽTT pranešimas spaudai, kurį, labai sutrumpintą, perspausdina religija.lt.

    Iš to, ką perskaičiau, nematyti grėsmės, kad Teismo pozicija vėliau plėtotųsi ir apimtų visokias „viešas vietas“, jei „vieša“ suprantame kaip „ne privačią“ erdvę. Teismo pozicija yra, kad religinių simbolių neturi būti „valstybinėse“ (taip turėtų būti verčiamas žodis „public“) vietose, kur žmogus yra priverstas pagal tos pačios valstybės įstatymus būti. Ypač – mokykloje. Gal būt – valstybės institucijose, kur žmonės eina tvarkyti reikalų. Bet tai absoliučiai neliečia miesto aikščių, bažnyčių stogų, nes: 1) pamatęs ant bažnyčios stogo kryžių tikrai nepagalvosiu, kad VALSTYBĖ mane verčia juo tikėti; 2) aš galiu išvis neiti į tą kryžių kalną, tai man nieko nekainuos.

  20.   Tadas rašo:

    Reaguodamas i Ministro “P.S.” norejau pasiteiraut, ar EZTT byloje butent nebuvo kalbeta apie PRIVALOMA kryziaus naudojima? Nes jei taip, tada visos musu kovos uz Italijos palaikyma ir sis komentaras keistai atrodo.

  21.   Tadas rašo:

    Dar truputi del Ministro “P.S.”. Pasiziurejau teismo pranesima spaudai, ten isties kalbama apie PRIVALOMO (”compulsory”) kryziaus situacijas:

    “The compulsory display of a symbol of a given confession in premises used by the public authorities, and especially in classrooms, thus restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions, and the right of children to believe or not to believe. The Court concluded, unanimously, that there had been a violation of Article 2 of Protocol No. 1 taken jointly with Article 9 of the Convention.”

    Atsiprasau, bet tikrai nesuprantu, kaip galim save vadint radikaliu libertaru ir nesidziaugt tokia teismo pozicija. Buciau labai dekingas uz paaiskinima, gal kazka ne iki galo suvokiu.

  22.   Antanas rašo:

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