Pilstuko skatinimo planas suveikė
Šiandien teko dalyvauti Policijos veiklos pusmečio rezultatų pristatyme. Vienas labai tikėtas dalykas visgi pribloškia savo mastu: visų su legalios alkoholio prekybos tvarkos pažeidimų (padirbti gėrimai ir t.t.) sumažėjo keliolika ar keliadešimt procentų, tačiau kelias ar keliasešimt kartų išaugo atvejų, kai pažeidimai susiję su nelegaliu alkoholiu. Pavyzdžiui, nelegalaus spirito iš apyvartos išimta septyniasdešimt dviem kartais (!!!) daugiau nei pernai per pirmąjį pusmetį. Nelegalios naminės degtinės išaiškinta per tris kartus daugiau. Nelegalios naminės laikymas, gabenimas, vartojimas (pagal perimtus alkoholio kiekius) išaugo irgi beveik dvigubai.
Aišku, gal tai susiję su policijos darbu. Aišku, kad tai tik vienas rodiklis. Tačiau akivaizdu, kad alkoholio kontrolės politika duoda savo vaisius: daugiau slapstymosi, daugiau kontrabandos, daugiau nelegalių gėrimų, mažiau surenkamų mokesčių. Po to seks ir kitos pasekmės: daugiau prisigėrimo kultūros ir mažiau alkoholio vartojimo kultūros, stipresnis organizuotas nusikalstamumas, daugiau teisinio nihilizmo.
Vyriausybės planuose buvo metams pasibaigus įsivertinti, ar pasiteisins akcizų dyzelinui sumažinimo „eksperimentas”. Tačiau jau šiandien aišku kita - Vyriausybė turės įvertinti naktinio alkoholio akcizų padidinimo „sėkmę”.
Patiko (0)
2009-07-29 18:12
Remigijau, suprantu, kad dauguma vyriausybės narių (kaip ir Seimo) yra teisiniai nuliai, bet ar bandėte paaiškinti jiems, kad draudimas yra atgyvenusi ir neefektyvi teisinė priemonė. Nejaugi dar nesugebama pasimokyti iš tų pačių klaidų? Iš karto buvo aišku, kad uždraudimas prekiauti alkoholiu tam tikru paros metu neduos nieko naudingo. Ekonominės logikos taip pat nerasta. Kaip galima verkti, kad nesurenkami akzicai, kai stipriai mažinamos galimybės juos surinkti. Toks jausmas, kad dabartinė valdančioji dauguma sugeba valdyti trimis priemonėms:
1) išlaidų mažinimu (tiesa, dar klausimas ar moka šia naudotis);
2) mokesčių didinimu;
3) draudimais.
Nejaugi, tik tiek galima išspausti iš iš teisinių-ekonominių gebėjimų?
2009-07-29 19:31
Demagogija, o ne įrašas. Tamsta galėtų bent vieną psichologijos ir sociologijos darbą šiuo klausimu pastudijot, prieš aiškiariagiškai piešdamas prasigėrusios tautos ateitį. Policininkus, beje, tie patys alkoholio gamintojai paskatina (materialiai) geriau dirbti darbą su “nelegalais”, nes dabar kiekvienas butelis svarbus. Žodžiu, prielaidos iš esmės neteisingos. O gaila, nekvailas žmogus atrodėt. O gal protingas, tik per daug su lobistais bendtraujat.
2009-07-29 22:06
Visu pirma tai noriu pastebet kad gaga kazka cia nei i tvora, nei i mieta drebtelejo. Na o ad rem tai, vertinant ar uzdraudimas nakti prekiauti alkoholiu atnese daugiau naudos ar zalos, reikia atsakyti dar ir i klausima kokie yra pokyciai su kriminogenine padetimi tamsiu paros metu bei kokia eismo ivykiu, kuriuos sukele neblaivus vairuotojai ar tie patys pestieji, statistika tamsiu paros metu. Be to, klausimas ir kas pasikeite policijos veikloje, galbut tai ir nuleme tiek daug konfiskuoto nelegalaus alkoholio? O siaip del dyzelino, tai galima pasakyt, kad sitas dalykas gali ir nesuveikti, nes ekonomikos veiksniai kartais gali buti sunkokai apibreziami ir siuo atveju, akcizo sumazinimas dyzelinui gali neduoti jokiu apciuopiamu rezultatu del visos likusios valstybes ekonomines politikos. Miniai patoso nesukels viena iskelta ranka ir vienas suksnis tarp simtu skeptiskai nusiteikusiu balsu. Ji pajudes tik tada, kai visi isvien bus nusiteike pozityviai. Taip ir su musu ekonomika
2009-07-30 07:47
Arba žmonės yra valstybės nuosavybė, arba ne.
Jeigu yra, valdžios ekspertams leidžiama kištis į jų asmeninį gyvenimą. Pavyzdžiui reikalauti, kad automobiliuose visuomet būtų prisisegę saugos diržus, nustatyti, ar leidžiama vieni kitiems teikti lytines paslaugas, ir kokie veiksmai tokių paslaugų teikimu laikomi, kokius narkotikus vartoti legalu ir kokiu metu leidžiama tai daryti, ką galima rodyti per televiziją, ko ne, o ką privaloma.
Kai kurių įsikišimų naudą beveik galima įrodyti - štai, pavyzdžiui, pagerėjo alkoholinių psichozių statistika. Galima dar ką nors uždrausti, gal dar kokia statistika pagerės.
Problema tame, kad visuotinis gyvenimo kokybės pablogėjimas dėl kiekvieno laisvės spręsti savarankiškai pakeitimo bet kokiu suvaržymu statistiškai nematuojamas.
Pavyzdžiui neturima paprasto ir kiekvienam žmogui suprantamo būdo įvertinti, kokio dydžio yra kolektyvizmo išsikerojimo žala.
Panašu, kad kai kurių “lyderių” savikliova spręsti už visus žmones mažai ką erzina.
2009-07-30 09:36
Sutinku, jog draudimas yra kraštutinė priemonė, bet mūsų visuomenė atsiprašant necivilizuota ir nebrandi.Kur chaosas, ten reikia stiprios rankos. Išaugęs pažeidimų skaičius liudija apie negeroves, tačiau dabar verta padirbėti policijai ir suvaldyti šį procesą. Tai ilgalaikė perspektyva ir kompleksinis darbas.
Pacituosiu Verygą “Kalbant apie nelegalią prekybą tenka apgailestauti, kad Seimo nariai nesiūlo būdų, kaip efektyvinti nelegalios prekybos kontrolę (ne tik alkoholio, bet ir tabako, degalų ir kt.), o siekia padidinti legalaus alkoholio prieinamumą, taip skatina alkoholio vartojimą ir prieštarauja valstybės strateginėms programoms. Norisi paklausti pačių LLRI ekspertų: ar tik ne jų pačių nuolatinis priminimas visuomenei, kad nelegali prekyba gana palankiai vertinama visuomenėje ir leidžia juodosios rinkos dalyviams jaustis saugiai, o patiems vartotojams nuolat primena nelegalių prekių įsigijimo alternatyvą? Kodėl LLRI ekspertai nesivargina paaiškinti visuomenei pliusų, kurie atsiranda sumažinus išlaidas tabakui ir alkoholiui”
A, Remigijau?
2009-07-30 13:20
Gagai ir Rūtai:
suprantu, kad skaičiai nebūtinai rodo tikslą ir visą tiesą. Bet argi jie nepriverčia susimąstyti?..
O dėl to kad mažiau gerti būtų naudinga - sutikime, kad situacija įvairi. Daug alkoholio vartotojų jo vartoja aiškiai per daug ir žalingumu neabejoju. Kita vertus, kartais savo močiutę norisi įtikinti, kad kai jai sumažėja spaudimas, geriau trisdešimt gramų brendžio išgertų, o ne vaistų. Esu įsitikinęs, akd dauguma normalių žmonių (kuriuos, beveik visi kovotojai už “geresnį” pasaulį, aišku, užmiršta) alkoholio vartoja nei per daug, nei per mažai.
Ir galiausiai - dėl ko ir rašiau šį blogo įrašą - negi mes tikrai siekdami geresnio pasaulio turime užmiršti, kad žmogus nėra nei valstybės nuosavybė, nei toks primityvus, kurį reiktų tik valdyti ir nukreipinėti kažkokia linkme.
2009-07-30 13:49
Yra ir kitokia statistika: “Pirmąjį šių metų pusmetį Lietuvoje užregistruota 24,2% mažiau eismo įvykių nei tuo pačiu metu pernai. Mažiau žmonių žuvo ar buvo sužeista”.
Jei neklystu sumažėjo ir alkoholio psichozės atvejų. Taip kad nėra viskas taip prastai. O išaiškintų pažeidimų skaičių irgi galima vertinti ir iš pagerėjusios kontrolės pusės. Gal iš baudų surinksim daugiau nei būtume gavę akcizo? :)
2009-07-30 14:12
p. Remigijau, Jūsų minima močiutė tikrai ne tas asmuo, kuris po 22 valandos bėgtų į parduotuvę pirkti brendžio:)
2009-07-30 14:41
Alkoholiniu psichoziu sumazejo. Sumazejo. Faktas. just teigia, kad eismo ivykiu sumazejo. Specialistai tvirtina, jog draudimai veiksmingi.
Kada gi politikai nustos uzsiimti demagogija (palyginimui - “reklama neskatina vartojimo”, irgi geniali demagogija)?
P.S. Kai paprastas zmogelis piktinasi siuo draudimu, hm, galvoju apie priklausomybe (nes kas gi trukdo nusipirkti “tiek, kiek reikia” iki 22 val.?). Man atrodo, vien tik gyvenimas Lietuvoje itraukia i rizikos grupe, tokia pas mus vartojimo kultura. Kai politikas ignoruoja faktus, darosi idomu :)
2009-07-30 14:49
Ir klausimas gerb. Remigijui:
“Ir galiausiai - dėl ko ir rašiau šį blogo įrašą - negi mes tikrai siekdami geresnio pasaulio turime užmiršti, kad žmogus nėra nei valstybės nuosavybė, nei toks primityvus, kurį reiktų tik valdyti ir nukreipinėti kažkokia linkme.”
Atleiskit, o jus uz narkotiku legalizavima? Zmogus nera toks primityvus, nei valstybes nuosavybe, turime pavyzdi - Olandija, kazkaip sekant jusu minti, butu logiska, jei butumet uz :)
2009-07-30 16:40
Visiškai pritariu Rūtai. Vadovaujantis Šimašiaus logika, dabar, pavyzdžiui, reikėtų leisti laisvai vogti, plėšti, nemokėti mokesčių ir taip toliau. Kadangi tai būtų legalu, kriminalinė statiska ženkliai pagerėtų. Obvious as it is.
2009-07-30 16:48
Komentatoriui 20023003×79:
Kiek žinau, alkoholis nėra mažiausiai kenksmingas narkotikas, ir bene vienintelis narkotikas, skatinantis impulsyvų agresyvumą. Bet patogus tuo, kad užima daug vietos, todėl lengviau už kitus suskaičiuojamas ir apmokestinamas.
Tai nebūtų nuostabu, jeigu “už narkotikų legalizavimą” libertaras Remigijus pasisakytų. Ar bent susilaikytų nuo priešingos pozicijos deklaravimo, kol dar ministras.
2009-07-30 18:26
Anarchistui
Jei kiekvieno laisvės spręsti savarankiškai pakeitimo bet kokiu suvaržymu įtaka visuotiniam gyvenimo kokybės pakitimui yra statistiškai nematuojama, tai iš kur žinai, kad nuo suvaržymų gyvenimo kokybė blogėja :p
2009-07-30 19:10
Laisvės suvaržymo pavyzdys yra kalėjimas. Absoliučiai daugumai ten esančių - esminis gyvenimo kokybės pablogėjimas. Kažkaip galima tai suvokti be statistinių duomenų.
2009-07-30 20:43
as gyvenu nedideliame miestelyje, ir galiu drasiai sakyti, kad daugiau pilstuko policja ” isima ” ne todel kad geriau dirba, o todel, kad jo papraciausia atsirado daugiau. Pabrangus alkoholiui, pilstuka pradejo gerti net tie, kurie anksciau gerdavo valstybine, tas pats yra ir su cigaretemis - jas parduotuvese perka labai nedaug kas.
puse litro ” pilstuko ” taske kainuoja 6 litai. Zmones geria ir mirsta labai jauni. Apylinkeje yra kaimu, kur liko vieni pensinikai vyrai - visi jaunesni krito nuo pilstuko.
naktinis draudimas bent mano kaimelyje nieko nedave - tame paciame taske galima nusipirkiti degtines. bet kontrabandines. Zodziu ta akcizu ir draudimu politka visiskai nepasiteisino.
2009-07-30 22:13
kostie, atvirksciai pasigeisino:) tegu nuodijasi greiciau - is ju naudos valstybei kaip is ozio pieno. Dirbt nedirba, genofondas prastas, tai jau buvo nebuvo… Ne del alkoholiku istatymai daromi, o vardan tu, kurie dar turi sansa jais netapti.
2009-07-30 23:01
Dėdė Merfis sako. kad dydis keliantis mažiausia abejonių, dažniausia būna klaidų šaltiniu. Prisimink O’Henri personažą valkatą, kuris bet kokia kaina stengėsi pakliūti į kalėjimą, kad galėtų išgyventi žiemą. Taip, kad pavyzdys niekam tikęs. Tuo labiau, kad kalbame apie suvaržymą, o ne visišką laisvės atėmimą.
2009-07-30 23:42
Anarchiste, va cia ir slypi idomumas. Jei cia liberalo pozicija - valio, tuomet butu logiska pasisakyti ir uz narkotiku legalizavima (beje, grazus alkoholio apibrezimas).
O jei tik demagogija, sutampanti su priklausomybe serganciu zmoniu nuomone ir pelno siekianciu kompaniju tikslais (beje, labai neetiska vadinti ligonius nenormaliais “Esu įsitikinęs, akd dauguma normalių žmonių (kuriuos, beveik visi kovotojai už “geresnį” pasaulį, aišku, užmiršta) alkoholio vartoja nei per daug, nei per mažai.”)?
Beje, kostia “uzkabino” ir kita gera klausima - cigaretes. Te jei jau “sant george” kontrabanda tapo legendine, te gal ir ten kazka reikia daryti?
Jau nekalbant apie prostitucija.
2009-07-31 11:06
to kostia rašo:
2009-07-30 22:13
- ne vienas is tu zmoniu negime alkoholiku. Dirbt sie zmones dirbo, augino gyvuliukus, dirbo ukiuose, lentpjovese. Tik nuo pilstuke esanciu fenoliu ( kuriu nera valstybineje degtineje) zmones negali ” atsipachmielinti “, todel geria kelis menesius ir eiles.
draudimais, baudomis ar bausmemis dar niekam nepavyko nugaleti nei alkoholizmo, nei narkomanijos. Reikia siom visuomenes ligom ismusti fundamenta, o ne ji stiprinti, ka dabar daro musu Valstybe.
2009-07-31 15:48
Lurkeriui:
“Dėdulė Merfis” gali būti ir teisus, bet meninis O’Henrio personažas šiuo atveju gal nėra patvirtinantis argumentas.
Kitas dalykas - jeigu “dydis keliantis mažiausia abejonių” yra ne statistinis, o loginis (taip/ne, vienas/nulis, gerai/blogai) ir vistiek yra pagrindiniu klaidų šaltiniu, verta klausti, ar kartais nesame tapę “Alisa stebuklų šalyje” personažais.
2009-07-31 17:56
kostia, nematau su tamsta gincytis - is posto aiskiai matyti, kad esi skaites vienos rusies beletristika is serijos “kaip blogai yra draudimai”. O tu paskaityk rimtesnes studijas, pagristas mokslines tyrimais, kurios butent draudimus ir ribojimus ivardija kaip efektyviausias priemones priklausomybems suvaldyti. Aisku, kad jie alkoholikais negime. Jie tokias tapo. Ir pradejo jie ne nuo pilstuko, o nuo alaus ar sidro dar iki pilnametystes, kada priklausomybe alkoholiui prilimpa greicaiusiai. Isisamonink, zalias tu zmogau, kad istatymai skirti paaugliu alkoholizmui mazinti, nuo kurio ir prasideda keliu menesiu pachmelinimaisi. O ne tam, kad chronius kiaura para galetu isigyti legalios degtines. Chroniu jau nieks nebeisgelbes - juos tik grabo lenta istiesins. Yra kruva saliu - iskaitant ir JAV (o ypac kaikurias valstijas), kur alkoholio prekyba ribojama simta kartu labiau nei lietuvoje. Ir kazkaip nieko, gyvena.
2009-07-31 23:35
Anarchiste, sofizmų, kaip argumentų nepriimu. Dvejetainę logiką (taip/ne, 1/0) sugretini su logine sistema (gerai/ blogai). Būtent loginės sistemos turi tą savybę, kad gali atsidurti neapibrėžtoje būsenoje. Beje, elektronikoje to galima išvengti tik draudžiant tam tikras signalų kombinacijas.
Kitą vertus, tu puikiai supranti, kad norėjau pasakyti, jog bet koks ribojimas toli gražu nevisada reiškia kokybės blogėjimą, kaip nebūtinai turėtų ir gerinti ją. Neprotinga dalykus, kurių veikimas priklauso nuo aplinkybių, versti dogmomis.
O Alisos personažai tik iš pirmo žvilgsnio keisti. Juos kūrė matematikas ir stebuklų šalyje karaliauja geležinė logika.
2009-07-31 23:37
Įvairūs kvaili ribojimai įsigyti alkoholį mane įžedžia asmeniškai. Kaip pilnametį, neapriboto veiksnumo pilietį. Tačiau kažkokioj radio laidoj traumatologas ar kt. gydytojas pasakojo, kaip per rugsėjo 1 d. kai buvo draudimas prekiauti alkoholiu, atvežė viso labo porą kruvinų girtų nepilnamečių per parą, o kai draudimo nebuvo - tų nepilnamečių atveždavo po ~70-80ą. Efektas sunkiai įtikimas, bet kam gydytojui, sakau, meluoti. Reiktų ribojimų efektyvumo analizės ir rasti aukso vidurį.
2009-08-01 02:27
Lurkeriui (darosi gana įdomu): “Būtent loginės sistemos turi tą savybę, kad gali atsidurti neapibrėžtoje būsenoje.”
Neironizuosiu, tiesiog nesuprantu ką čia parašei. Gal “logika” vadiname skirtingus dalykus? Sprendžiant iš toliau sekančio teiginio apie elektroniką (kibernetiką?), turėjai omenyje ne “gyvenimo logiką”? Klaidų apdorojimą? Ką nors kitą?
Gal yra kokios formaliosios logikos “būsenos”, formalizuojamos ne dvejetainio taip/ne rėmuose?
Diskutuojame viešame forume, apie visiems suprantamas problemas (ar bent tokio geresnio supratimo siekdami). Kaži ar turėtume remtis argumentais, panašiais į “elektronikoje daroma taip, o ne kitaip”.
Dar dėl tos logikos. Nori pasakyti, kad Alisos problemos yra “geležinės, matematiko logikos” nesupratimas?
Net nežinau, ką sakyti. Visą laiką galvojau, kad kūrinys yra metafora apie žmogaus, susiduriančio su absurdu, tame tarpe - su “teisingo, dosnaus” valdiško absurdo logika, situacija.
Jau gal reiktų kokio trečio komentatoriaus šiam nuomonių apsikeitimui pasverti.
2009-08-01 02:55
Ir dar truputį Lurkeriui:
“Kitą vertus, tu puikiai supranti, kad norėjau pasakyti, jog bet koks ribojimas toli gražu nevisada reiškia kokybės blogėjimą, kaip nebūtinai turėtų ir gerinti ją. Neprotinga dalykus, kurių veikimas priklauso nuo aplinkybių, versti dogmomis.”
Bandykime neversti dogmoms.
Tavo paminėtas “kokybės blogėjimas” (galėjo būti pasakyta ir įprastesnis “gerėjimas”) priklauso nuo to, ką laikyti kokybe.
2009-08-01 03:18
Vertėjo tai pasakyti trumpai, nesiveliant į diskusijas.
Žmogaus laisvės riba yra kitų žmonių laisvė.
ne “kokybė”
ne “saugumo” poreikiai
ne “kultūriniai” poreikiai
ne kreditiniai, ar kurie kiti gyvenimo kitų žmogaus sąskaita poreikiai :)
Bet kurio “ne” išsižadėjimas prastina bendrą rezultatą.
2009-08-01 23:38
Anarchistui
Tikrai darosi įdomu, bet mes nuklydom į keletą skirtingų diskusijų, nelabai susijusių su blogo autoriaus užduota tema. Todėl nesiginčysiu, o tik paaiškinsiu keletą savo minčių. Teisybės dėlei pripažinsiu, kad pavyzdį su loginėm sistemom galėjo teisingai suprasti tik specialistas. Apie tai nepagalvojau. O ir per daug tiesmukai jį perkėliau į formaliąją logiką (beje, kalba ėjo ne apie logikos, o apie sistemos būseną, kada rezultatas negalimas nei “taip” nei “ne”).
Dėl “Alisos” tik vienas loginės grandinės pavyzdys tokiam visuotinai žinomam absurdui, kaip Češyro katino šypsena. Skaičiai yra siejami su daiktais: dvi kėdės, penki riešutai ir t.t. Matematikai skaičius supranta, kaip abstrakcija, tiesiog du, penki, t.y. skaičius be daikto, šypsena be katino :)
Nors ir nevisai į pilstuko skatinimo temą, bet negaliu sutikti su laisvės apibrėžimu. Jis per daug paviršutiniškas ir nuvertinantis pačią laisvės sąvoką iki veiksmų laisvės. Ar tos ribos taikomos pačiam sau? Kitaip sakant, kiek aš laisvas veikt ribojant savo paties laisvę? Tuomet, ar hedonizmas yra aukščiausia laisvės išraiška? Klausimai nevietoj, todėl ir atsakymų nelaukiu. :)
2009-08-02 00:06
Manai kolektyvizmas yra vaistas nuo hedonizmo?
Ar gali nurodyti kriterijų, kaip pasverti, ar kuo matuoti?
Statistiką? (Klausimas retorinis).
Gal tikrai tiek to.
2009-08-02 00:58
Loginės dedukcijos būdu visai įmanoma įrodyti kvailų draudimų ir apribojimų beprasmiškumą. Blog’o komentaruose jie užimtų perdaug vietos. Jei neveikia moralės normos, jokie valdiški suvaržymai nebus efektyvūs. Kontrolės ir draudimų iniciatoriai, manau, tai žino, bet vis tiek atkakliai muilina mums visiems akis siekdami politinių dividendų. Štai ta dviguba „moralė“ ir yra dalis atsakymo į šį opų klausimą.
2009-08-03 09:10
Ką jūs pakomentuosit mano aukščiau nurodytą situaciją, kai rugsėjo 1 uždraudus pardavinėti alkoholį girtų susižalojusių nepilnamečių sumažėjo nuo kelių dešimčių iki vienetų ? Dedukcijos būdu įrodysit beprasmiškumą ?
2009-08-04 00:05
Atrodo paradoksalu, bet galima. Tačiau reikalingas sutarimas dėl prielaidos, priimtinos abiem pusėms. Tokią prielaidą rasti ne taip jau ir paprasta.
2009-08-07 23:59
To bang:
Sekant tavo minčių eiga siekiant apsaugoti žmones nuo nelaimių, visus narkotikus, o taip pat ir bet kokius veiksmus, kurie tavo asmenine nuomone yra per daug rizikingi, reiktų uždrausti apskritai, o už draudimo nesilaikymą bausti mirties bausme. Tokiu būdu tavo iškeltus tikslus pasiekti tikrai pavyktų.
Beje valdžia tą padaryti laisvai galėtų ir praktiškai, nes žmonės šiandien YRA teisėta valdžios nuosavybė. Valdžia gali naudoti smurtą, ir naudoja jei tik prireikia, prieš smurto nenaudojančius žmones idant priversti juos elgtis taip, kaip valdžiai patinka (nes tokia ir yra pagrindinė ir vienintelė valdžios paskirtis), o tą teisėtai daryti galima tik su savo nuosavybe.
2009-08-15 19:38
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2011-10-14 12:48
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2011-10-16 20:32
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2011-11-03 07:28
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2011-11-03 21:02
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2011-11-05 04:42
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2011-11-05 04:42
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2011-11-09 16:32
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2011-11-09 16:43
Let us not forget that Reagan’s future vp (Bush) and cia chief (Casey) met with the Ayatolla Khomeini behind the back of the then-current Carter administration (treason) and arranged for Iran to keep the American hostages until after the election. In return Iran got, at the very least, a conduit thru which to illegally receive missiles and other armaments–which came to light when traitor Ollie North got busted taking the missile $$$ and giving it to friends in Central America who turned out, naturally enough, to be drug smugglers USA-bound. Ah, the good old days…
2011-11-13 20:08
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2011-11-15 06:50
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2011-11-17 06:49
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2011-11-17 14:06
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2011-11-18 08:31
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2011-11-23 06:38
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2011-12-06 17:55
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2011-12-07 18:43
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2012-01-06 21:40
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2012-01-08 02:13
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2012-01-16 01:10
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